John Karsant
LevelUp Leads
Tennis Coach to 6-Figure Remote Sales Founder | John Karsant
Click to play episode
"If you're constantly getting shut down with the same pitch, well, change the pitch or change how you're saying it. Like you need to be adjusting to what the the to market feedback.
Key Takeaways
- ◆John moved from tennis coaching to sales by quitting his job, spending nine months in Buenos Aires learning Spanish, and then finding his first remote sales role because he wanted to stay abroad.
- ◆He pivoted Level Up Leads from one-time list-building sales to recurring appointment-setting subscriptions by moving further down the funnel, which made the service more valuable and created stable monthly revenue.
- ◆When a cold lead doesn't convert immediately, most sales reps assume the lead is bad, but John points out that only 3, 5 percent of any market is actively buying, so cold leads require consistent follow-up and nurturing across multiple channels.
- ◆John uses a paid tool that generates messaging based on client input and website content, and when clients say the output is wrong, he shows them it's pulling directly from their own outdated site copy.
- ◆He fires clients who treat his team with disrespect, drawing the line at toxic behavior rather than trying to salvage every engagement, because no amount of revenue is worth a bad working environment.
- ◆Studies show internal SDRs need at least six months to generate ROI, but when clients hire an agency like Level Up Leads, they expect results in month one, which John says sets an unrealistic timeline for proving success.
- ◆John says most companies that blame lead gen for poor results don't have a track record of closing deals themselves, so it's unclear whether the problem is the leads or their own sales process, messaging, or outdated website.
Full transcript
Show
Chad Paris
Welcome back. I'm Chad Parris. The show exists for one reason to get the real story, the scar tissue, the pivots you didn't post about on LinkedIn. No highlight reels, no seven figure victory laps without the context. Today's guest has seen over a thousand companies try to buy their way to growth, and he's tracked every reason they fail. Some of it is the leads. Most of it isn't. Let's get into it. John Corsant.
Chad Paris
Is the founder of Level Up Leads, a lead generation agency that crossed the 1,000 monthly recurring revenue mark and now competes in a field of about 10 real players in a space flooded with hundreds of copycats. He worked with over a thousand companies tracking not just what gets meetings booked, but why clients churn even when the meeting shows up. Before building Level Up, John was a tennis coach. Today he is
Chad Paris
in the business of connecting companies to opportunities and watching where they actually ready to close them. John, welcome to the show.
John Karsant
Thanks for the intro, Chad. I appreciate it.
Chad Paris
Yeah, glad to have you. So so let's talk about the tennis coach to the agency owner, that that whole that whole world, right? Like that's two different worlds, but really not this not. I I was a coach one time too. So I like to think there there's a lot of synergy in what you do coaching and what you do in in real world. So you'll take me back to the moment you decide to leave being a tennis coach and and and going in with this.
John Karsant
Yeah, you know, I think most people that get into sales don't have the the textbook career path, right? It's typically you get into it by accident and that's that's the same for me. I was I played tennis in college and I just was grinding away, focusing on school, but also my anything outside of school was just tennis related and didn't do a whole lot of planning outside. You know, what am I gonna do after school? I just figured I'd I'd I'd I'd figure that out and ended up naturally
John Karsant
Going into a tennis rule, I could have worked at the company called Prince, which a of people may know. and then after that started teaching tennis. But you know, the only way to make make a lot more money in tennis is to keep teaching. And when you're when it's summer and it's hot and you've been on court for six straight hours, you kind of start thinking, is this what I want to do for the rest of my life? Like, so
John Karsant
I actually had a pretty good job and I I couldn't have asked for a better team and and setup, but I just knew it wasn't something I wanted to do forever. So I at at one point I had to rip the band-aid off. I I did quit and it was my second time quitting. I got pulled back into it once before, but I did quit and I ended up moving down to Argentina with no job and really just the the simple goal of learning Spanish, having a home base outside of the United States in a
John Karsant
area where I could like get to understand the culture and be in one spot and not travel around and move so much. And then using Arj Buenos Aires as my home base, I used that then to travel and then come back to Argentina. And then at about about the nine month mark, I was like, all right, well, I've been doing this quite a while. I want to stay down here, but I need to get a job. what will allow me to work remote and stay down here? And so that's how I landed my first sales role.
Chad Paris
That's cool. Yeah. It has a tendency to suck you back in, doesn't it? Something you have a heart and passion for. I I was a coach for ten years. And so I get it. Like you you you said, you know, I I I I thought I was gonna be like the next Bear Bryant or something. I had no idea I'd be in sales. And then, you know, here it is, you know, fifteen, twenty years later, twenty five years later, and I'm like, wow. well, you know, you just you I don't think anybody you're right. Nobody goes and goes, Man, I'm gonna be a salesperson. That's what I want to do for the rest of my life, right?
John Karsant
Yeah.
John Karsant
Yeah. What did you coach?
Chad Paris
I coached football, baseball and a little bit of basketball, mainly football. but I d you know, I I I I loved it and and I I I'll be honest, I think a lot of what I was able to do, especially as an executive leading teams, has been from the coaching and and being able to relate to kids that are all walks of life different and you gotta build a relationship. You know, you know that in coaching, right? You you gotta have a relationship before you can
Chad Paris
get on get down to the real root of helping them get better. But probably I bet if I bet if I ask you some of your your best, you know, r memories or been your relationships you've had with past coaches, I guarantee you'll you'll say that.
John Karsant
Yeah, you know, it's it's funny you've you've got I was just thinking about as you're talking about that, I've you've got the relationship with the actual person on the court. But when you're teaching someone, let's just say under 25 years old, you also need to build a relationship with the person paying for the lesson. So then you've got to build a relationship with the parents. And so there's two different types of relationship you've got to to build, one on the court and one off the court.
Chad Paris
Yeah. That's that's true. And and and you know, I was from the and it maybe maybe it was a little tough, but you gotta you gotta be honest with people, right? I mean, especially when people are paying money to to to to have their children and and y you know, we all as as parents we want our kids to have the best opportunities that they can. but you're paying someone and and to to to do services and you need them to be honest with you. Like, hey, they they they if they would you know this is where, you know
Chad Paris
Every parent thinks that they're better than they really are. I mean, that's just normal, right? But having that coach to be in in reality with you is is a lot like it is in the business world. I mean, we have people that come to us all the time that think they're better than they really are. and you have to be realistic in a in a professional way of telling them that, you know, these are areas that would help your business if you would do X, Y, and Z.
John Karsant
Yeah.
John Karsant
Yeah. I think one of the one of the important things too is showing them the path like there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Hey, hey, you're not there yet. You're not the starting corner on I'm just making this up, but you're no, you're not the starting corner and here's why. But here's how I can see you getting there. And so you you motivate them to stick on the path because maybe there's a a road for them to get there. Maybe they're skinny and they need to get in the weight room or faster, whatever it that may be. Like you give them the the hope and motivate them to get there.
Chad Paris
Yeah. Absolutely. I mean i it has to, right? I mean you you just you just have to you have to be honest and you have to give a plan, you know, how how do you get there? That's sometimes it's more than what people want to do. I think that's a lot like what we do in our our world today is I can give you a plan to fix it. Now whether you do that or not, I I don't know, but I can give you the plan. and I know it works because I've I've used it
Chad Paris
several other companies just like this one and it's worked. it's just a matter of is it is it worth the effort and the time that you have to put into it to do it. And I think that's for all of us, right?
John Karsant
Yeah, how bad do you want it? Right?
Chad Paris
Yeah, how bad do you want it? That's it. So so so t l let's think about I I like to call this question the clients you kept too long. Cause we've all had right? So so so maybe, maybe you know, you've worked with a thousand companies, you you've seen all, right? And we always have that one that we just have this this this man, we want to see succeed. We want them to do it, you know. But
Chad Paris
It just doesn't work out and we may have had to say, you know, I probably kept that person a little too long and and they just, you know, never did conform. you don't have to name a specific company, but I'm sure that's happened to you and kinda kinda talk a little bit about that that dynamic and, you know, how how hard it is for for what we do on our side.
John Karsant
Yeah. You know, I if if a client I wouldn't say we kept them too long because there's all in most cases, there's always different things we can try as long as the client's willing to stomach that and test it and you know, understand that this we're testing for them and learning. what there are clients that simply just treat us bad and that's that's when I just kind of draw the line and we were are happy to end the engagement early or whatever that may be like.
John Karsant
I don't think it's I don't take it personally, meaning like I don't think it's anything we did wrong. I just think that's how they generally operate. and that just sucks and I wouldn't want to work for those those types of people. It just seems like a toxic environment. and and there also there's there is some truth to the way agencies, like an outside person will be treated versus an internal. sometimes it's like they will try to make it as hard as possible on you to like prove out your success.
John Karsant
so there's certain things like that. but yeah, in general it's it's it's it's the not necessarily the people that we work try like tried a lot of different things. It's more so like if we're just simply being treated poorly and like with disrespect, then that's where I'm happy to just draw the line and end the engagement.
Chad Paris
Yeah, and that's and that's w probably better said. You you know, and and you're so so right. Because we you know, we we have a job to do, right? I mean, I own a consulting company, you do. We we we have a job that we have to do and you know, we want it to be a relationship where you treat people you know, well, right? I mean, we're trying to do a really good job for them and you're trying to do a good job for them and and we wanna we wanna work with people that that yeah, we don't I think it's often the
Chad Paris
theory that you know we we need everybody. Like we we don't ever have a you know bad client. Well we all have bad bad clients, right? We we make mistakes, they make mistakes. And you have to kind of draw the line in that and and be willing to and I think that's a great point. Like, you know, we we want to work with people that that want to be there, right? And that treat us the same way that we're treating them. Because I don't think any I don't think you take any client you go, man, I'm gonna do a crappy job for this person. I don't think anybody does that.
Chad Paris
That's not in our our thaw, right?
John Karsant
No.
Chad Paris
Yeah. So it it it's all about, you know, perspective and and what we're trying to do. And you know, I I've had situations where I mean me too. I've had to kind of like, you know, I just don't think it's a good fit. And and and those are it's often interesting when you do have to do that, the the look that you get. Like, what are you talking about? Like, you know, it's and and you have to explain why. And and sometimes they're like, Hey, you know what, I didn't realize that, I'm sorry, you know, dah.
Chad Paris
And sometimes they don't, right? I mean it's just it's just all about the situation and protecting your people.
John Karsant
Yeah. Yeah, I mean the list goes on and we could probably talk about all these different scenarios, but yeah, like you said, it's not like any no one's in going into the engagement thinking it's gonna go poorly or thinking they're going to give a half-assed job. Like, you know, you you do your qualification ahead of time t because you think it's gonna be a good fit and sometimes it's not. It's you know it's better to be honest and then let it drag out for for too long and just, you know, kind of go through hell in the meantime.
Chad Paris
So, you know, I wanna get into the the real I mean, really the meat of of what you do 'cause I think it's I think it's really cool and I think it's it's it has a it has a tendency to have a bad taste, but it's not. And it's really about what you do and how you do that, which is lead generation, right? I mean that's that's the thing that you do and I think it's I think it's a well needed thing and I and I'd like to talk a little bit about that. So one of the things when you and I was talking
Chad Paris
And and this this resonated with me is that, you know, in lead generation you you work very hard to get leads to come into people and and the right leads, right? I mean, we we've had and try to make you know, where they come in, they're really good. And you you've had a situation and and maybe more where you, you know, people are just churning them, right? They're just turning over the lead. They're they're they're not converting.
Chad Paris
And so there's two s there's two worlds to that. And I wanna really talk about that, 'cause one is is the lead coming in, and the other is is is it a selling converting situation, right? 'Cause it's not always the person bringing the leads in. It can be very much that the they're not they're not churn they're not converting it, right? And so that's a that's a misconception with a lot of people that's like, well, we you know, we're we're getting terrible lead. You know, it's kind of one of those theories that where salespeople say, Well, if the marketing person would get us more leads
Chad Paris
good leads we could sell more and then the mess the marketing person says, Well I give you a hundred leads and didn't you didn't sell one of right? You know, that whole scenario happens every day. So I I I I think this is a big I think this is a a really big area of conversation that happens out there. So that's why I want to spend a little time on it. So I was just kind of set in the presence of what we're going talk about. so so let's dive into that a little bit and talk about some scenarios where that's happened or situations in in where you've come from.
John Karsant
Yeah. Yep.
John Karsant
How much time we got? I could talk for a few hours on this.
Chad Paris
Well I think it's I think it's a I think it's a very important conversation and I wanna I wanna do the due diligence because I I know there's this misconception out there and I wanna just kinda talk through that a little bit. For people who's out there listening to may have had a bad theory on lead generation and I wanna I wanna kinda walk through that.
John Karsant
Yeah, I mean the at the end of the day, both both parties, the whether it's internal and SDR doing lead gen for their AE or it's an external company like ours doing appointment setting for whoever the sales team is on at our on our clients end, both parties need to meet us, you need to meet in the middle. I think what's common is sales reps will
John Karsant
whether it's coming from marketing or we're generating it's i they kind of have the okay lead come ins meeting if it doesn't automatically lead to a proposal they're like these aren't any good you know like what about working it's just like what about working the lead or I think st studies show like only three to five percent of the entire market is even like in the making like in the b buying mode. Right? So like most most leads are going to require follow-up and nurturing.
John Karsant
So I think that's a common thing that people will say, these aren't any good. They're not qualified. These aren't like my referrals or inbounds. They're like, yeah, of course. They're cold. We're going out in cold to get these leads. They're going require a bit more nurturing. They had no idea who you were before. Maybe they weren't even thinking about this before. and so I think that's one of the common things. There's a lot of scenarios I could talk through of like on our end versus the the sales reps in, but like I think that's one of the common things is expecting.
Chad Paris
So start there. Let's start there. Because I think I think you just brought up a very good point. And I and I think that's I think that's a great place to start. John you just said it. Understanding what a code email is versus a warm referral. And I and I'm and I'm gonna come from the s I'm gonna you're coming from the lead side. I'm gonna come from the sales side on this because I've I've led sales teams.
Chad Paris
And I I will tell you some things that I think on the sales sides that are missing. Because I I think I think you make a great point. I think that's a great place to start. So we think about leads and you think about coming in and and n obviously if if somebody refers me, it's a warmer lead than anything, right? I mean, that's the whole point. It's it's it's somebody referred you, they're like, Hey, this guy does a really good job. You should talk to him. Well, they're already coming in. You know, you gotta understand the mindset of the people coming in, right? They already have the mindset of, well,
John Karsant
Hundred percent.
Chad Paris
They've done a good job for somebody. They're referring me. Versus a code email is just somebody who just literally got something that saw something that said, Okay, let's try let's try it. They don't know anything, right?
John Karsant
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean the warm email it's it's
John Karsant
It's one they've already they have a need, likely. They've already done say they probably reached out to a friend or someone they know or put out a post somewhere in an internal like community, Slack community, or something like that, and said, Hey, this is what I this is this is my need. Who do you know? You write. And so you're already getting referred by a trusted source. So you're this lead is coming in, they have the need, they and they're getting referred to somebody by someone they likely trust, right? So you're already starting in an excellent position.
John Karsant
And also sometimes the the actual person will feel the obligation to take that meeting because they're being referred. The other person's gone out of their way to find them somebody. So you're getting a meeting that I you gotta think the show rate's close to a hundred percent on those two. and it's just a lot different than coming in cold.
Chad Paris
Yeah. So what are some things that let's just talk a code lead coming in? What are some things that could help for people that when they get those that they could do and qualify? For example, what is the average outreach to get a a code email to finally maybe engage? Because I think we all as salespeople think that well, as soon as he comes through my inbox and I send them an email, they're going to engage, right? Isn't that a misconception?
John Karsant
I mean the email this day these days are changing so much. I mean the what was working just a few years ago, you you have to significantly increase the volume or you have to have be coming in like like a warm referral or hey I s you know, I s met you at the conference or something like that. Just going in pure cold it's it's really tough these days.
Chad Paris
Yeah. I used to have a a saying I and this has been several years ago. I think it it I mean this has probably been I don't know, six, eight years ago. It wasn't at at that time it was about eight or nine, maybe even ten touch points before you ever got a a reply on a code email. I think it's what tripled that now.
John Karsant
Yeah, and it if you're just using one channel, it you're really shooting yourself in the foot and you really gotta be going multi-channel if you really want you just don't know who some people aren't gonna respond to any emails, some people aren't gonna pick up the phone, but they have their preferred channel. So you really need to be going in and and multi-touching, going LinkedIn, maybe even direct mail, email and and phone calls.
Chad Paris
There you go.
Chad Paris
Yeah. And I and I think from a sales side of that, people people often, you know and it's and it's two different theories, right? You you have an in you have a internal sales team that maybe s that like what I call inside sales where they're at a desk and they can churn and burn a bunch of calls. And then you have one that's out, you know, in the field. And and it's often funny because the people in the you know
Chad Paris
And I've ran both, right? So the inside sales, you know, they're they're they're constantly able to sit at their computer and take calls and generate and generate and generate. But I've had companies where they did code email to the outside team and I'm like, I disagree with that because they're not going to touch any of them. They don't have the time.
John Karsant
Yeah.
Chad Paris
But people do it.
John Karsant
Yeah. I mean one thing you could you could do is if you're looking for a way to make make some slight improvements is actually reach out to people you've talked to in the past, like old old people in the CRM, lost deals, like somewhere where they they recognize your name, something like that is is it could be helpful. But again, just going in pure cold, we still do it. It it it can work, it's just become harder. there's other channels that are working better.
Chad Paris
Yeah.
Chad Paris
Well, I I again I know we could talk for days on this and I I just I just wanted to give people a little bit of you know a touch on this because I th I just I just think it's something that gets a gets a bad rap and and you said it there's so many multiple channels that you have to be touching rather than just one. And I think it's important for people to understand that that that you gotta you gotta you gotta have somebody like like yourself when you're trying to do, you know
Chad Paris
business to business or business to see, like how you're how you're going about that. And if if you don't have somebody in your in your network that's that's helping you with this, it will absolutely wear you out to the point where you'll hate it. And I and I find that. And if I I I say all that because as a as someone who also has lead generation and and do that for people, I find it very often that most people have a very bad taste in their mouth. And it's usually comes back to past experiences.
Chad Paris
where it wasn't set up properly or they didn't have somebody they engaged with like you or me, they kinda helped walk through how to do it the right way. Is that fair?
John Karsant
Yeah, I actually wanna touch on a few things. someone brought this up to me, I thought it was a good analogy, and it was, you know, did you marry the first re in like the first relationship you ever had? Did you get married? And most of the time it's no. I was in high school or whatever and
John Karsant
It was immature and when it was it was her fault or his fault or whatever the the case may be, but oftentimes you grow up, you mature, you learn from the relationship, you improve, and you do better the next time, right? And I think there's a it's a sim similar kind of concept here is like companies are evolving, they may have tried outbound or using lead gen when they were just new to the market. Maybe they had no idea who to target, maybe they didn't know their messaging, maybe the product has evolved over time. And so, like just because you tried it in the past out of
Chad Paris
Yeah.
John Karsant
certain point I wouldn't put all there's certainly some responsibility on the lead gen company okay don't get me wrong but oftentimes a lot of it is like well were you set up for success have you seen success in the past to know that it it it was purely on the person doing the outbound or have you already done the success you had you've seen it before so you know it works
John Karsant
You know, you could all you know it's easier to point the finger towards the lead gen company because you've you have a a track record of success. If you don't, then who's to say it's it's on the lead gen company, right? Or your internal team? Like maybe your website looks like it was done 15 years ago, and when people are laning there, it's it's a turnoff. It's true. So I I
Chad Paris
Thousand percent true.
John Karsant
Think about if you receive an email or you you're interested in a product or service, however you get there. And you go to, you kind of like you're looking to validate the credibility of that company. And part of it has to do with the image and the how they display themselves online. Are they easy to be found? Do they have reviews, positive reviews? How's their website? Like you're looking at all these things, and then oftentimes you'll go back to that email to then respond.
John Karsant
Right. So if you don't have some of those things lined up, you could be losing somebody after you already got their attention. And that could be anything. That could be PPC, pay-per-click, that could be organic SEO, like it's any lead generation.
Chad Paris
Yeah, I I I I think you hit on my I think you you nailed it actually. and this is something that I that I see a lot when when I'm talking to to to business owners or looking at companies. and I don't know about you, but the messaging, right? You you kind of mentioned the messaging and and it's it's really kind of what you're talking about. Like when when someone has a because people when people get a when when they get notified about a product or service or whatever it is.
Chad Paris
They're going to go and do their own research. I mean, we we as human beings can research better now than we've ever had. Now, twenty five, thirty years ago before the internet, you you just took it, yeah, okay, well, this is what they say they do, right? But but today you can you can with with AI, you know, Clyde, with with Chat GPT, you can search companies and search things pretty, you know, pretty extensively, very quickly. So you can get a good idea. but I find it very, very common that
Chad Paris
A lot of times the message that they're saying is not the message that they that people go and find off of their website or or whatever, right? They don't they don't they're not they're not in sync together. Do you see that?
John Karsant
Yeah, you know, we actually rolled out a a tool that helps develop the messaging based off of some of the the content and and questions we ask our clients. It's based off of that.
John Karsant
And sometimes they'll be like, this is this isn't right. We're like, well, this is the information that's on your website. So like we'll okay, we let's update it, but I'm letting you know this is what we received and you know we're not pulling it out of our back pocket. Right. So like oftentimes things can be outdated, whether it be messaging or some type of channel, could be YouTube or you know, case studies or things like that.
Chad Paris
Yeah. and it's and it's it happens. It's very common. Especially, you know, I I see like companies that that maybe they started and and you know, they've grew they grew real fast, right? Or they or they moved really fast and it or or you know, they created a different product and and just the messages change, right? The they're not the same company, I guess what I'm saying they were when they first started. It's changed over time. But
Chad Paris
No one's went in, updated the website or the landing pages or any of that stuff. So what they do today is is still say their their information out there is still the old stuff and and and that happens a lot. That happens a a whole lot when people just forget to update or or just get busy. It's out of sight, out of mind. Nobody nobody, you know
Chad Paris
Marketing and and stuff that we're talking about is not first in mind for people. They they typically like, I don't really care about doing it 'cause you can't see the money coming back, right? Well, you can an exchange. So you get that a lot. Yeah.
John Karsant
Yeah. Well, you know, I I no matter the company size or how long you've been in business, companies are always testing. No it's it's very rare you just have static messaging and we're just gonna run with it for the next five years, right? Companies are always testing different angles and ways to get their point across or to
John Karsant
like poke the bear and and get people to open up about their problems, right? There's different ways to go about that. And some of this may depend on the channel if it's a conversation or an email. And so you need to be testing. Like you need to be analyzing different what's working, what's not.
John Karsant
And and this is something that typically a sales team or sales managers will be doing is you need to be analyzing what's working and what's not. If you're constantly getting shut down with the same pitch, well, change the pitch or change how you're saying it. Like you need to be adjusting to what the the to market feedback. And so that's something we help companies out with. But even if you're doing it internally, like yeah, I mean test out what's working and and like if you set a meeting, what what was the script or what was the language that was that that was able to lead to that meeting?
Chad Paris
Yeah. And and if you do find something that works, you know, use it. Like like lean into it, right? Don't don't don't think it's a one and done. Like if you see some success, like lean into that. Like that's that's a good thing. That's a good sign, you know. Sometimes people get the good sign and they get scared of it. Like I don't know what to do with the with the good stuff. You gotta you gotta lean into that, right? And and create more of that content. So you know, one of the things that
John Karsant
Yeah.
Chad Paris
But that we that I'd like to talk about too with you is is you know, you John, you've you've you've you've been very successful and and you've you've had a you've run a very successful company. How how long have you been in your company now? Five years. And is it the same company it was in year one?
John Karsant
Years.
John Karsant
Not even close. It's way different.
Chad Paris
What do you mean? It's the same. What happened? What does it look like today? Different.
John Karsant
you know, what we when I started the company, we were doing list building. And so to clarify what that is, we were building out contact lists for clients to go out and use on their own. Just the data, the email, the contact information, the phone number, and that was it. And the issue with that is that it was a one-time sale and clients would want to go work that list for a few months.
John Karsant
And it just became hard that recurring revenue became very challenging. And so over time, what I started doing was going further along in the process and not just developing the list, but doing the messaging, running the campaigns and actually generating the lead. There was a point where we were just doing the interested lead and then passing it over to the clients, but then we took it one step further to actually booking the appointment.
John Karsant
So what happened over time is I was able to develop recurring revenue and also more the service became more valuable because that's actually an appointment being booked and I'm supplying the team and the tools and everything. And so that's how the company started developing and taking off from just simple list building and one-time sales to recurring subscriptions.
Chad Paris
Yeah. So y you you've been very successful. You you've you've done well. congratulations to that for for doing that. What has you has your you know, this is often things that people don't think about. You know, as you've grown and as you've been successful and your business has grown,
John Karsant
Thank you.
Chad Paris
What does life look like now? You work few hours or more hours?
John Karsant
I have taken a small step back, but that's with you know it's still around a full workday. You know, there was, you know, when you're trying to get off the ground and get over the hump and you're wearing a lot of different hats, you're working more than eight hours a day consistently. now it's probably more like seven to eight, you know, so it's it's hit and miss, but yeah, eventually you get to the point where you get a team in place and there's a there's a common saying that's this the CEO is not the chief executive officer, they're the chief everything officer.
Chad Paris
That's it.
John Karsant
So once you can get get once you can get out of that, which takes a while for most people, then you get the team in place and you start being able to back off and they can handle the vast majority of things.
Chad Paris
Is it been is it been crucial, you know, hiring the right people? Is that is that something that you've you felt like you've had success at doing or has it been challenging? You know, how how was the step of hiring the right people? Was it hard?
John Karsant
Yeah, it is hard. And especially in a people led organization like ourselves, it's crucial, right? So it's important we have good people. It's difficult to hire and get those good people in place. So for every good hire, there's probably always a few whiffs, you know, a few misses. I have depending on the
John Karsant
the actual position we might either do paid job posts or actually just hire a recruiter to help some of it. It just comes in network or people I know. but yeah depending on the the actual position itself will depend on how we go about sourcing that that talent.
Chad Paris
You know, I get I get this question a lot when thinking about putting putting people in in companies to help you know, help their h obviously, you know, when they're getting ready to hire and is yeah, I I don't know of your experience, but in and is developing a really good
Chad Paris
ICP for who you're looking for. It's it's funny how many companies don't do that. And don't when you ask them for that, they don't have a clue.
John Karsant
Or they they have something, but it's not defined at all. So it's just like, here's like the entire C suite. And we're like, okay, well, that's not not it. How are we supposed to do outreach to that? Like, and that ends up being a lot of our work is is like a little bit of consulting on the side, even though that's that's not really what the service is. But it's like, okay, we can't reach out to the CFO. You know, and some people want C suite only. Like you sometimes you gotta say, hey, look, we're gonna go down a few levels, seniority levels, but
Chad Paris
Yeah.
John Karsant
You just can't reach out to all those same departments with the same messaging. You just can't. So it's sometimes it's and and across all these industries and across all these countries. So you have to kind of like, okay, here's where I think we should start first. You need to guide them a little bit on where to start and where to test, and then if that, you know, next campaign will do you know, X, Y, and Z.
Chad Paris
Yeah, it's it's it's it's true. And it's it's it's a little bit of of you know, when you think about it, they don't they don't do this every day. This is not something that they do. and so it it takes a little coaching and and kind of walking them through what that looks like because you know, a lot most CEOs are are delegated this person to make the decision on this. They're not they're not wanting to be the
Chad Paris
decision or the the pinwheel for everything. So you gotta know the right people, right? Who you're trying to contact. And it's very hard for companies when you ask like, you who who who's your you know, I say well, what's your what's your perfect I C P and they look at you like,
John Karsant
What's ICP? Yeah.
Chad Paris
And and you have to walk through it. And it's it's it's it's and that's okay. I mean that's what that's what we that's why we do what we do. because we want it to be successful for But there's a lot of you know
Chad Paris
I say this almost every time I do a podcast. We live in a very quick I need it now. I need it served up to be and I need it to be easy. We live in that environment right now. And there's a lot of tools and a lot of things that are out there that preach. If you if you watch social media, you i every one of them is man, this tool will give you back twenty hours. You know, it's it's it's what the messaging is. if you don't know this, the messaging out there is is
Chad Paris
Give you more time and and and make an easy button. That's the message, right? And and and there are some that can do that, but I will tell you that if you don't understand your your structure and who you really are to core, and you just go and you start trying to pick up these different tools and things, you're you're gonna run to a lot of c you're just gonna create more chaos. Cause it's not it's not specific for what you do. Because everybody's different. Not all companies are out of a box the same, right?
John Karsant
In in most cases they're all different. Even in the same industry they have it you'd be surprised.
Chad Paris
But Yeah.
Chad Paris
'Cause they go maybe maybe their approach is different, right? They all have a different angle on what they do or and y it's usually geared around what's been successful for them in the past. So that's their that's their go to. Well we've had success with this, so this is what we go to, right? So yeah, go ahead. Yeah.
John Karsant
Yeah. W one thing I if I could just jump in, one thing I'd say that's important if you're using a a lead generation company or even hiring a SDR internally. SDR stands for sales development representative. is some people will like you're talking about the hey, you know, the instant instant easy button, like look in sales and in lead generation, there's gonna be up months and down months.
John Karsant
And so if leads fall off one month, that doesn't mean it's not working. It could mean just needs to be an adjustment, right? I could turn back to you and be like, well, are do you have even the the same exact number of sales every single month for the entire calendar year? Answer is no, right? You have up months, you have down months, there's seasonality. And so like oftentimes companies are quick to want to cut
John Karsant
a Legion company because a one down month when if you look at the big it people that have been in sales know this a little bit longer, but you have to you have to let it play out. Maybe the the first campaign wasn't wasn't the best. And one of the analogies I use is we'll use sports as an example. football's not a good example, but like basketball. You have a seven game series or a five game series. Well, you're gonna come into the game, the game one, with a game plan.
Chad Paris
Yeah. I absolutely.
John Karsant
And you might get your butt whooped. So what do you do? You do quit? No, you you you watch the tape and you come into game two with a different game plan. And it's the same type of thing. Whereas you have a campaign, you go into the market, and if that doesn't work, that doesn't mean you you quit. You you have to adjust the strategy, right? You have to allow for the adjustments to take place because not everyone hits a home run at every at that.
Chad Paris
Could have said it better myself. And you're you're absolutely right. I mean, I don't care w it it takes you know, what you use or what you do, right? it takes it takes some some tweaking. You you have to tweak it. Like it's nothing nothing's nothing's good out of the box, you know. You have to kinda work it a little bit. Because and and because it the it messaging is I mean, y y you're you're connecting a message and it it needs some time to bake. It it and but I think that's where
Chad Paris
People like yourself and what what we do is is is we we're involved in that process. So we're constantly watching and and seeing the messages and what's being done and and you know the analytics of of being able to well, not only the analytics, but you know, having the analytics, but being able to interpret the analytics to make the decisions is is is very crucial. And it oftentimes it takes some time to run it to know.
Chad Paris
a good analytics 'cause it can be false in the very beginning. You can see a real big number, you're like, this is really good. But in reality it's not. It's it's you gotta dive a little deeper to understand that, right? I mean, that's kind of what you're saying. You gotta be able tweak it. Yeah.
John Karsant
Hundred percent. Even the companies we've been working with for a year or two plus, they're still making tweaks, still making adjustments as we go. So it's never a static thing. There's always some adjustments that we're making.
Chad Paris
Yeah, I like that. And that's a good point that you just made. Even people that you've had success with, that's that you're that that's been longtime clients, they're still adjusting. They're not using the same thing they used two months ago.
John Karsant
No, they're always making adjustments or they want to try something new that they haven't done before, and so it there's always tweaks being made.
Chad Paris
Yeah. And that's good. That's really good. so we're we're getting into the we're gonna do the quick fire round. Okay. I have five questions. You're just gonna answer the qu you just pop out whatever you think in your mind, okay? Here we go. First one, most expensive mistake you'd happily make again.
John Karsant
Okay.
John Karsant
Happily make again. Oof.
John Karsant
I d I don't know how to answer that. I don't nothing's coming to mind. I I I know expensive mistakes I don't wanna make again. I ha have to pass. I don't know. Nothing's coming to mind.
Chad Paris
Yeah, okay.
Chad Paris
All right. No problem. You can pass. You're in charge. You get to pass on that. one belief about your industry that you no longer hold.
John Karsant
Sorry, repeat that.
Chad Paris
one belief about your industry that you no longer hold. Yeah.
John Karsant
industry. I used to think what my service was only for startups. And over time I realized actually no, there's enterprise companies that are using our service and it's just a matter of talking to the right people and building credibility and building those relationships.
Chad Paris
That's good. Yeah. And that's that's that's a great one. That's very good one actually. a tool, an out, or a ritual you couldn't run your business without.
John Karsant
Slack.
Chad Paris
Love Slack, man. That's a good one. I tell people, if you not ever use Slack and you run a business, you're missing out. That is the to me one of the best. I love it. the thing you wish more clients understood up front.
John Karsant
Yeah.
John Karsant
that s lead generation is hard. We've dis discussed a lot of this, but it's not always a home run right away. You have to be able to s to test and
John Karsant
really figure out where you're getting that traction. and like I said, it's not always going to be pretty out of the gate. Sometimes it is great, but oftentimes you need to make tweaks and I wish people understood that a bit better. Fun little fact actually so typically like studies show SDRs internal SDRs to get a return on investment is typically at least six months for internal SDRs.
John Karsant
Well, when you work with a company and they use it like an agency like ours, well, they want to see success in month one, too. So it's like it they're really not given the amount of time it is needed to prove out success.
Chad Paris
Good point. Okay, last one. what you know the podcast is called Process Over Pressure. So what does process over pressure mean to you, John?
John Karsant
I think the more you can develop processes, the better off you're gonna be in the long run. And the reason why I say that is it's very easy, and I've made this mistake too, is you just you develop what you want to do and you know it, it's kind of like semi-documented, but not really. And you can train someone, you have those one-on-one calls with them, but then.
John Karsant
As you hire someone new, it's on you again to have all those one on one calls and train them. And so like it it un becomes unscalable. So you really need to document those things so people can go and almost tr do a lot of the training on their own. Cause otherwise you you just can't be eating up your your own time over and over again. And so it works for the first hire or two, but after that.
John Karsant
you really need to document those processes and they will evolve. That's the the hard part is they they're constantly evolving, but it's super important so they have so people have something to refer back to.
Chad Paris
good. John, thank you so much for being on today. It was a it's a great show. Really appreciate your time. thank you for being so candid with us and and telling us a little bit about yourself. If people are out there and they're they're they're wanting to look at somebody to help with lead gen, how do they go how do they reach you?
John Karsant
My website, levelupleads.io, or you can find me on LinkedIn. I'm pretty active there. You just search for John Carsant.
Chad Paris
All right. Well thank you again. As always, guys. This is Chad Paris, Stonefly Consulting Group. Process over pressure every time. Till next time.
Subscribe
Get every article and episode in your inbox
No spam. Unsubscribe anytime.