Joseph D. Garrison
Garrison Law
Pioneering Plaintiff Law: 45 Years in Federal Court & Founding NELA | Joseph Garrison
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"the best clients take about twenty five percent of your your time and the bet worst clients take the other seventy five.
Key Takeaways
- ◆Joseph started at New Haven Legal Assistance in 1970 and tried roughly 20 federal jury cases representing the city against police misconduct claims, losing only two and learning early how to handle high-stakes litigation in federal court.
- ◆He was one of approximately 10 founding members of the National Employment Lawyers Association (NELA) when plaintiff-side employment law barely existed, and the organization now has 6,000 members.
- ◆In the early 1980s, Joseph won a $600,000 verdict against Cheesebrough-Ponds in what may have been one of the first employment trials in Connecticut federal court, though the judge reduced it to $200,000.
- ◆He built a seven-lawyer firm in New Haven that produced two federal judges and one state chief judge, crediting his hiring of excellent lawyers and paralegals as the biggest factor in his success.
- ◆Joseph charged a consultation fee below his hourly rate for prospective clients and always met them in person, refusing to take anyone he didn't like regardless of case quality because bad clients consumed 75% of his time.
- ◆He advises lawyers to inform clients immediately when something goes wrong in a deposition or when new facts hurt the case value, because clients always overestimate what their case is worth and need honest education throughout.
- ◆After 45 years of practice, Joseph retired from client work in 2023 and now offers unpaid advice to lawyers who reach out, having learned that showing respect to opposing counsel, even obnoxious ones, leads to better settlements and unexpected referrals.
Full transcript
Show
Chad
Welcome back to Process Overpressure, host Chad Paris today. Today I have a special guest. My guest today started practicing law in 1970, before the internet, before email, before anyone had even coined the phrase employment law as a specialty. Joseph Garrison didn't follow a path. He helped create one. He was one of roughly 10 lawyers who founded the National Employment Lawyers Association when plaintiffside employment work was almost Welcome back to Process Overpressure, host Chad Paris today. Today I have a special guest. My guest today started practicing law in 1970, before the internet, before email, before anyone had even coined the phrase, employment law, as a special. Joseph Garrison didn't follow a path. He helped create one. He was one of roughly ten lawyers who founded the National Employment Lawyers Association when plain side employment work was almost None existing. He built a firm in New Haven that produced federal judges. He tried cases for over 45 years. And then in night in 2023, he chose to walk away from client work entirely and start a completely new chapter. This is a story about what it takes to build something that lasts, what it costs you, and what happens when things you built become bigger than you could ever imagine. Joe, welcome to Process Overpressure. not existing. He built a firm in New Haven that produced federal judges. He tried cases for over 45 years and then in night in 2023 he chose to walk away from client work entirely and start a completely new chapter. This is a story about what it takes to build something that lasts, what it costs you and what happens when things you build become bigger than you could ever imagine. Joe, welcome to Process Over Pressure.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
Thank you.
Chad
Joe, it is a pleasure to have you today. And I'd love to start just to t let the let the audience know a little bit about you. I mean, what a career you had and and and what you've been able to accomplish in your time. And so so for the for the audience out there listening, t tell a little bit about yourself and and where you come from, where you where you reside today, and you know, give us a little quick version of what Joe is up to. Joe, it is a pleasure to have you today. And I'd love to start just to let the let the audience know a little bit about you. I mean, what a career you had and and and what you've been able to accomplish in your time. And so so for the for the audience out there listen, t tell a little bit about yourself and and where you come from, where you where you reside today, and you know, give us a little quick version of what Joe is up to.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
Okay. Well I've I've been a resident of Connecticut, New Haven area for the last forty five years. So that's where I have been basically. I I was born in California. I we lived in Missouri for outside of St. Louis for a number of years. But I will tell you the things that I think made a difference and as I was growing up in getting into law school and the kinds of things I thought about. number one, for those of you who are parents, you might think of I'm not sure how camps work these days, but when I was a youngster and started at eight years old, I started going to camp in Maine. And I started there at for one one month the in the first year, but then I went on to two months bef after that because I liked it so much. And what I learned there was a lot about leadership, a lot about Cooperating with other people. It was really an amazing thing. And so I'm pretty sure most people who are thinking about how do you start law practice or what should I do in school, don't think about camp, but I'm just saying get something else. Get something else. It's not just school. It's important to be able to get along with people, and that that's a great way to do it. Myself, I went to Wesleyan University in Connecticut and sort of following my unbelievably re at looking back un an un difficult program. Wesley had a really interesting program that did not involve grades. It involved seminars with with basically full professors all the way through. I thought that was a terrific one and I got into it and I and in fact it was. It was we learn I learned so much. We did we had to write a paper every single week and and it was really an amazing interchange. But the difficulty with it was because
JOSEPH D GARRISON
It didn't have grades, it was pass-fail. When I applied to law school, even though we explained all of this, we thought it was a little difficult. And I just found I wasn't getting much of a response from any law school. Luckily, eventually, Cornell Law School did accept me. It was lucky to be able to interview up there. I think it made a difference. And so I went to Cornell, which was a great law school anyway. and and and graduated from there in 1968. at that point I had gone to well you have what are called law school summers and this is another thing I'd that was interesting for me. Especially in in my second year, some friends when I were driving out to California. I had a job that a my uncle had arranged for me in San Francisco involving insurance. And I was supposed to work for an insurance company. And as we were traveling out, I found out that the job disappeared. So Yeah, yeah. It to say the least it changed my focus somewhat. In-person participant 1 gosh. that's fine. gosh. that's fun.
Chad
I bet so. Wow. Yeah. That's wow. Yeah.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
It th because my focus changed honestly from having a job to well I had a job 'cause I had to earn some money, but the the job had nothing to do with law at that point, nothing. And and it and I left it fairly early after I had enough money to travel around the West and we went to national parks with a couple of other friends and it it did change my focus on on law school because up to then I had thought I would probably do what a lot of lawyer yet law students do and that is work with a big firm and and do yep do you know that kind of work for corporations, et cetera, et cetera. but but with that I I I I changed my focus fairly completely.
Chad
Yeah. Yeah.
Chad
Wow. Wow.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
And and at graduation, again, probably nobody else should follow what I did. I'm not suggesting that it's a great idea. But I have to tell you, it did it did change the way I thought. I got married the day the week after I graduated from law school, and my wife and I are still together. This is our fifty-eighth year.
Chad
Yeah. Yeah.
Chad
congratulations. congratulations.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
Yeah, thank you. That and that that is something I recommend. S when you if you if you can stay married, if you get a great wife, it's a real, real help. Yeah, well for me, that's for sure. And I think for her too, of course.
Chad
Yeah. In-person participant 1 Well what a great what a great graduation gift. Yeah. What a great what a great graduation gift. Yeah.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
the we we took a year off. That was one of the things interesting. So after law school and after what I had said how everything changed, I decided w well no better change than to or time than to take a year off and we went to Spain mainly it mainly we were in Barcelona for a number of for really eight or n eight or nine months in Spain and Barcelona and then and I had left r resumes back in the US And I got a job offer from Alaska, which I thought, that's Spain's better than Alaska probably. So I didn't I didn't go to Alaska. You're you're not kidding. And and then and then a couple of months after the Alaska job, I did get a job offer from New Haven. I had or I had interviewed there and really did like it and probably because of my Wesleyan connection as well.
Chad
Yeah. That's a big difference from Connecticut too, isn't it? Yeah. That's a big difference from Connecticut too, isn't it?
Chad
Yeah. Yeah.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
and and so I I accepted that with the proviso that my wife and I needed a couple more months to travel around Europe. And and they said okay and and so so I started after that. It was in New Haven legal assistance In-person participant 1 Yeah.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
corporation. And that was one where many of you maybe maybe used the idea of legal assistance offices. yeah they represent we represented people who really were unable to afford lawyers and needed lawyers because they had s some serious legal problems. for me it was a terrific learning experience and the reason why was because
Chad
Yeah. Yeah.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
I was able to meet so many prospective clients and the you know, this kind of the overview was accept the client if possible, because otherwise they would have nowhere to go. But but there were so many that you did have to look you did have to be careful about who you dis accept. And
Chad
Yeah. Yeah.
Chad
Yeah. Yeah.
Chad
Yeah. That's fascinating. And I guess that's probably a really great thing too, because like you said, you get to meet so many people, right? There's people who need help and and and offering that service to them. And, you know, how do you pick? Like, my goodness. You know, you decide what how do you how do you pick to like, you know, to know which one to go with. Yeah. That's fascinating. And I guess that's probably a really great thing too, because like you said, you get to meet so many people, right? There's people who need help and and and offering that service to and you know, how do you pick? Like, my goodness, you know, you said how do you how do you pick to like, you know, to know which one to go with.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
Yeah, at some point almost all new lawyers take too many, that included me. And then you find that wow, you know, you're working all the time. It's really hard. And and so you do learn to cut back and you you do learn how to figure out to some extent who you should not accept. I I got better and better at that as obviously as the years went along. But you also would you learn some things about
Chad
Yeah. Yeah.
Chad
Yeah.
Chad
Yeah.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
About settlement, because almost everybody on the other side wanted to settle with clients who had no money.
Chad
Yeah.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
There were there there was nothing it for it for them to continue to be in litigation. And so honestly, in many cases d settlement was rather deceptively easy. And and it was deceptively easy because what you know our clients had little or no income. So while you learn a lot about how to do it, you also learn that you have a lot more power in this settlement situation than than you would have thought.
Chad
Yeah, I I'm I'm thinking I'm you know, Joe, you and I was talking like in nineteen seventy you you you started, but you you were on the plaintiff side, which was really not something that was I would say like I don't think everybody was coming out maybe going, let's be on the plaintiff side. But you was like kind of a I don't say nomad, but you're you you kinda like, hey, let me do this and and and you know, I guess was it from this that kind of sparked your interest to be on the plaintiff side? Yeah, I I'm I'm thinking I'm you know, Joe, you and I was talking like in nineteen seventy you you you started, but you you were on the planned side, which was really not something that was I would say like I don't think everybody was coming out maybe going, let's be on the plaintiff side. But you was like kind of a I don't yeah, say no bad, but you're you know, you're kinda like, hey let me do this and and and you know, I guess was it from this that kind of sparked your interest to be on the plaintiff side?
JOSEPH D GARRISON
Yeah, kinda half and half because we we were on the defense side and legal assistance was in general, but not always and but what I did like was working with people. I really liked that. And so
Chad
Yeah. Yeah.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
when I decided I w was going to leave the legal assistance office and and start a practice myself, I had a good friend who had been with with me in legal assistance for four years and he had started private practice a year before and we talked and and it worked out so that his practice, which was an individual practice, doubled all of all of a sudden when he and I got together and now we were two people.
Chad
Yeah, wow. Yeah, wow.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
And and so we had to flip a coin. This is kind of funny, we had to flip a coin about what the name would be. And I won I won the coin flip, so it the the the name became Garrison and Con instead of Con and Garrison. and it was actually a fairly general practice. and it was a really mostly In-person participant 1 that's great. that's great.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
a a practice which took on anything and it was mostly plaintiff work but there was one exception and that was became a an interesting and and
Chad
Yeah. Yeah.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
Really important exception for me. And that was another good friend had there was an an election in New Haven. A new mayor came in, and another good friend of mine became general counsel. And he asked me if I would become counsel for the city of New Haven in all of their cases. Well, and I was salaried to do that. So I mean that was nice to have a a salary. It was probably worked out in the end. I didn't realize this probably worked out in the end to be about twenty dollars an hour because there there was
Chad
Hmm. Mm.
Chad
Yeah. Yeah.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
so much work that the it was a good idea though not in terms of the money but it was a good idea in terms of the what I learned because the the city was inundated by cases in the federal court from a particular lawyer in New Haven and
Chad
May have not been a good idea. Yeah. Yeah. May have not been a good idea. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
And the city would not their their policy was they were gonna not settle any of those cases, not a single one, because he just can filed all the time. And so and generally cases where the police police officers were defendants, and they were virtually all jury trials, and they were all in the federal court. the nice thing about it was that my clients, police defendants, were great on preparing. They really were, they wanted to win the case. And they knew they had to set aside time to do that. They would get me other witnesses, fairly easy to do for them. And and I tried approximately twenty cases in the federal court.
Chad
Wow.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
Almost nobody did that c that much work that early. And l luckily for me, I I lost only two of them. I hardly even considered those to be losses because the one of them was a very small verdict for about six thousand dollars for really a very serious injury. I d didn't think it was very well presented, honestly, by the other counsel, but
JOSEPH D GARRISON
But that was one that I lost, the other one's only a property of damage recovery, and all of the other ones I won. Almost all in the federal court. So I yeah. That was really an amazing experience for me.
Chad
Wow. That's really that's really cool. I I Wow. That's really that's really cool. I bet it was I bet that and and I I just I just recently had my civic duty. I was I was picked to be a juror on a on a civic trial. Never have done that. And I tell you, Joe, and it for somebody who's, you know, never been on the inside of the courtroom very much, you know, thank goodness I'm always not I'm not in the court having to do that. I bet it was I bet that and and I I just I just recently had my civic duty. I was I was picked to be a juror on a on a civic trial. Never have done that. And I tell you, Joe, it it for somebody who's you know never been on the inside of the courtroom very much, you know, thank goodness I'm always not not in the court, I haven't do that. I will tell you that that as a country, we we should be very thankful. What a great process it was. It w to be able to do that and and and something that I was I was nervous about, but to sit in that and just see the lawyers, how they work along beside the judge and and and and and really how you examine that. Like we're very fortunate in this country. I don't think people realize that. Like how great the jury system and the and just our just our our our legal system together is is what it's like is is really amazing. In-person participant 1 I will tell you that that as a country we we should be very thankful. What a great process it was it to be able to do that and and and something that I was I was nervous about, but to sit in that and just see the lawyers how they work alongside the judge and and and and and really how you examine that. Like we're very fortunate in this country, I don't think people realize that, like how great the jury system and the and just our just our our our legal system together is is what it's like is is really amazing. And i it was a great experience. It was a great experience.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
Yeah, and thanks for saying that because I Whenever I could, after a trial was over, I would talk to the jurors. And I had to get the judges' permission before that. Some judges said yes you can and other judges said no you can't. Well if they said no, I obviously didn't. But a number of them would say yes. And I I tried as hard as I could to reach as many of the jurors as I could do. And their experience was just like yours. They most of them had not been on a jury before and they thought the process was just terrific.
Chad
Yeah. Yeah.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
They really enjoyed it. And they enjoyed it even though it was was hard for them. I mean they ha you know, you have to really you know, you have to listen to the evidence.
Chad
Yeah. Yeah.
Chad
I I tell you, I I was I was absol I mean, I'm gonna be honest with you. I mean, I was absolutely exhausted at night coming back from it because you're constantly listening and really paying attention. And and for me, I was thinking I was sitting there, this is what came to my mind. I was like, this is a civic trial, right? It's it's it's a it's a it's an accident, somebody's wanting money. In the grand scheme of things, like I was thinking, like I tell ya. I I was I was absolut I mean I'm gonna be honest with you, I mean I was absolutely exhausted at night coming back from it because you're constantly listening and really paying attention. And and for me, I was thinking I was sitting, this is what came to home and I was like, this is a civic trial, right? It's it's it's it's a it's an accident, somebody's wanting money. In the grand scheme of things, like I was thinking, like, I've got to make this this decision, and I know it wasn't just making a decision over life or death or a murder trial or anything like that. I was like, I don't think I could ever be a juror for I've gotta make this d this decision and I know we wasn't to making a decision over life or death or a murder trial or anything like that. I was like, I don't think I could ever be a juror for a murder trial. This is too much pressure. murder trial this is too much pressure. Yeah I was like this I was like I was like this is I mean this was the pressure enough and it was just a silk case. I was like ooh I couldn't do a big one.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
That that's why I did all these civil cases. I agree with you on that one.
Chad
Yeah. Yeah. I was like this I was like I was like I don't this is I mean this was the pressure enough and it was just a civil case. I was like, ooh, I couldn't do a big one.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
Well, there were a lot of civil cases that were you know that quite important and and because so many of these that I was trying were against the city and against the police department of the city, it was really it was important because you know, a lot a lot sort of was was was concerned if you were
Chad
Yeah. Yeah.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
you know, if you lost a case then it it could result in changes of policy or anything else. It could result in any number of things. And and so it was you know they they were important city cases, but but the b the other good thing for me was here I was in the federal court, almost always. And that's a place a lot of lawyers never get to go.
Chad
Yeah. Yeah.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
And and and it was really it was really a a great experience for me. So
Chad
To totally different, I'm imagining, and being in a in a in a you know, sick a sick circuit court, obviously being in a federal, like just amplified ten times the pressure, right? Tot totally different I'd imagine than being in a in a in a s you know sick a sick circuit court, obviously being in a federal like just amplify ten times the pressure, right?
JOSEPH D GARRISON
Yeah. One of one of the cases that but on the same by the same token I was bringing cases in the federal court that were clients of our office. And and one in particular, one of the very early cases that I tried was one where my client was employed by Cheeseboro Ponds and it was an employment case. One of the the when you said it was
Chad
Yeah.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
I did early employment cases. You're absolutely right. That may have been one of the first employment cases that was ever tried in the federal court, at least in Connecticut. Probably in you know some places. California was ahead of the game in employment, but Connecticut wasn't. And so there was a lot of publicity on this case because the defendant was Cheeseboro Ponds, it's a well-known company in the frankly in the country, but they're they're located in Connecticut, their headquarters. So there was a lot of publicity on the case.
Chad
Wow. Wow.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
case itself and I got a six hundred thousand dollar verdict, which is this is in the nineteen early nineteen eighties, and that's a lot. And that was so much that the judge, the federal judge, reduced it to two hundred thousand dollars. Yeah, because he was so he was just incensed in a sense that the that we won so much and he just didn't think it that should hold up. Well okay. and and you know there
Chad
Wow. That's a lot. Yeah. That's a lot. Yeah.
Chad
Wow. Wow.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
He did award attorney's fees, of course, so the client got that. But it was the win that made the big difference to the client. That was what really made the difference.
Chad
You know, Joe, I I just fascinating talking with you and even when we did our pre talk, you know, just kind of learning about you and you know, one of the things that I mean you've had a i and you may not say this, but I can just from the research. I you've had a successful career. You've had a long career in law and and and and federal tr like you said, being in federal court and doing that. And I think one of the things that when you were talking to me that stood out that I I'd love to talk about is You know, Joe, I I th it's fascinating talking with you and even when we did our pre talk, you know, just kind of learning about you and you know, one of the things that I mean you've had a you may not say this, but I can just from the research, you've had a successful career. You've had a long career in law and
JOSEPH D GARRISON
Uh-huh. In-person participant 1 And and and federal tr like you said, being in federal court and doing that. And I think one of the things that when you were talking to me that stood out that I I'd love to talk about is you you and about maybe nine others I think or ten of you guys founded NELA which which you may want to tell about. Like like that's that's a huge thing today. Was it when you were when you were early on in practicing, but massive today and you kinda was the You you and about maybe nine others, I think, or ten of you guys founded NELA, which which you may want to tell about, but like like that's that's a huge thing today. Was it when you were when you were early on in practicing, but massive today. And you kinda was the part of one that like got that going and started that. That's pretty impressive, pretty cool. everyone that like got that going started that. That's pretty impressive, pretty cool.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
Yeah. Well yeah, thanks. I mean I agree with that. It was that that's an important development in employment law, particularly for lawyers that represent employees. And and frankly anybody that's listening and is in that category and you represent an employee and you're not in the National Employment Lawyers Association, go join it because the it it's a terrific organization. And yes, we were in the early early stages of of organizing. and and it it it yeah I know it we the the ten of us it we were all really good lawyers honestly and and we were all in the same same position of starting practices in various states that were generally speaking the first and only practice for for plaintiffs and so it was a really important thing to do and it expanded and expanded and now it has 6,000 members that come to con you know lots of them come to the conventions that are held every year. It's a big deal now and it's it was really important for me to look at. Lots of state organizations, same way. Almost every state has a plaintiff's employment component I think it's I think it's some nationally I think it's around 6,000. Yeah it is a lot it is a lot and
Chad
How many members are they are they at now? Do you know? How many they are? How many members are they are they at now, do you know? How many are? Well, that's a lot. That's a lot. And do you still do the conventions? Do you still go? Well, that's a lot. That's a lot. And do you still do the conventions? Do you still go?
JOSEPH D GARRISON
I went last year. Last year was the fortieth. How about that? Yeah, I know. I know. Yep.
Chad
Wow. Forty years. Something you started and is still going at forty years. How about that? Wow. Wow. Forty years. Something you started and is still going at forty years. How about that? Wow.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
Yep. So I was a speaker because they had I used to be the president for three years of the organization. And and they had a panel that had a bunch of us who were presidents of the organization speak about some of the most interesting things that we thought about how to develop practice and so on. And it was a really good organization and really that was a very good convention naturally. But
Chad
And I'm sure and I'm sure you have you've got lifelong friends from from being in that organization, not just in Connecticut, but all over that practice law and and develop relationships over the time. And I mean, I think that I think that's one of the most hidden gems in my opinion as a as a business owner and a leader, you know, putting yourself around the right kind of people and learning from them and having conversation with them and being okay to say, Hey, what's your thoughts on this? How do I, you know I'm sure and I'm sure you have you've got lifelong friends from from being in that organization, not just in Connecticut, but all over that practice law and and develop relationships over the time. And I mean, I think that I think that's one of the most hidden gems in my opinion as a as a business owner and a leader, you know.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
that's right. Yep. That's right. In-person participant 1 Putting yourself around the right kind of people and learning from them and having conversation with them and being okay to say, hey, what's your thoughts on this? How do I, you know, how can I always I guess what I'm saying is always getting better. And and being around the right people helps you get better. How can I I all always I guess what I'm saying is always getting better and and being around the right people helps you get better.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
Right.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
You're not kidding, and particularly when you mentioned business That's not taught in law school. Well it wasn't when I was there. I mean I hope that they teach it now because it is you know, a lot of people go out and they do have to open their own business and they have no idea about how to do it, including me. I had no real idea about how to start a business. I had some idea from having clients before that y like I said in legal services, but actually making money someone.
Chad
Yeah.
Chad
You you know what? You would be shocked. I mean, I I I work with with law firms and and and I hear that very I hear that a lot. I mean, even even younger lawyers today that you know they they they go to law school and and they're good at law. Like they know it. They're they're very, very good lawyers because I think school trains them to be very good lawyers. But when it comes to the business and as they grow and they start bringing clients in and they and you know, their their their workload. Yeah. You you know what, you would be shocked. I mean, I I I work with with law firms and and and I hear that very I hear that a lot. I mean, even even younger lawyers today that you know they they they go to law school and and they're good at law. Like they know it. They're they're very, very good lawyers. Because I think school trains them to be very good lawyers. But when it comes to the business and as they grow and they start bringing clients in and they and you know, their their their workload and they end up a lot this is what I hear a lot. I hear up a lot of them that are frustrated because And they end up a lot this is what I hear a lot. I hear up a lot of them that are frustrated because they don't get to spend their time what they love, which is practicing law. They're having to do the business side of it. And and I've been able to help a some of them with, you know, the processes and procedures and setting up some stuff to help them where where they can do more of what they love. So so it's very common even today. It's and in a lot of and and I've heard a lot of them say they they they almost quit because of it. They burn out. They don't get to spend their time what they love, which is practicing law. They're having to do the business side of it. And and I've been able to help some of them with you know the processes and procedures and setting up some stuff to help them where where they can do more of what they love. So so it's very common even today. It's and in a lot of them and I've heard a lot of them say they they they almost quit because of it. They burn out.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
Yeah, that's I think you're absolutely right about that. But you know, as you if you're gonna start on your own where you ha you have to think, I I believe you have to start from the beginning and think I need to figure out how to expand. I really being I I know there are an awful lot of solo practitioners out there and and I have a great deal of admiration for them. I don't know how they do it. And for me, I hired fairly fairly quickly. a a lawyer who well actually was one of the ones that left our office to become a federal judge later because she was so she was so good as a as a lawyer herself and she's been a great federal judge. We've stayed friends forever. but but that was really important because you know my the first guy, the guy that I went with originally had split off because I was doing employment law almost always and he did not do any and he did basically the other parts of law motor vehicle, et cetera, et cetera. so it was important for me to have somebody else working with me. And then the other thing that we did was we merged with another firm that had five lawyers. So there all of a sudden we we had seven of us and once again somehow my name, I forget how this time, but my name became still the num the number one in the firm, so that was helpful. I was. I was.
Chad
You're you're a good gambler. Ain't that what makes a good lawyer? You you're a good gambler.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
to some extent, yes, absolutely. yeah, because you do a lot of gambling and you better be good at it. Yeah, yeah, that's why I don't gamble otherwise. I figured I already did enough for myself. and yeah, so that was that was another thing that we did that I did that really helped and f that group. In-person participant 1 Ain't that what makes a good lawyer?
Chad
Yeah. That's it. Well well Yeah. That's it. That's it. In-person participant 1 sea. Well what's
JOSEPH D GARRISON
That group was an amazing group. I'm just looking at the because another another one became a state court judge, another one became a federal judge. So there's three judges out of seven lawyers. I'll say I I had something to do with producing federal judges.
Chad
I I was gonna ask you, I I know you may not wanna talk about it, but one of the things that a lot of our listeners may not know and and and lawyers that are out there, how many how many federal judges have you produced? And and I say that because they work for you and you've trained and moted them, how many? I I was gonna ask you, I I know you may not want to talk about it, but one of the things that a lot of our listeners may not know and and and lawyers that are out there, how many how many federal judges have you produced? And and I say that because they work for you and you've trained and voted How many?
JOSEPH D GARRISON
Well, I two federal judges and one in the and one state court judge. The state court judge went on to be the chief judge in in his whole district. So anyway, these were obviously excellent lawyers. And the nice thing for me is I've my wife and I have remained friends with them it just within the last three weeks. We've been to dinner with both of both of them separately. And so you know, it is a really good thing to have happen.
Chad
Well and Well and there's not a lot of people can say they they hire people and then they become either federal judges or chief of judges. So you know, you you you had a good knack not only being a good lawyer, but you had a good knack of hiring the right people. There's not a lot of people can say they they hire people and then they become either federal judges or chief of judges. So, you know, you you you had a good knack not only being a good lawyer, but you had a good knack of hiring your right people.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
I did and I I really do believe that that was a a big part of my own success naturally. so I let me go that sort of segues into what I was gonna say otherwise. you know, s sort of the whilst does it take to become successful.
Chad
Yeah. Yeah.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
the first was hire the best people that you can get. And and that isn't just lawyers. in our office as we expand it out to seven lawyers, well we had ten for a little bit, and that was too much, but it end we have we've ended up with seven and stayed there. Paralegals are really important also, or legal assistants, whichever they may be called. the I would say don't call anybody a secretary, because that is that is passe, and legal assistant is
Chad
Yeah. Yeah.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
Is much better, paralegal is much better, and that's what what we had. We had usually usually three to four paralegals or legal assistants, and that was really, really helpful. and then comes the question of what about hiring other lawyers, new ones or experienced ones, and that's a a hard choice, but again it does it sort of involves some gambling, that's for sure. if they're experienced, you really do need to look carefully at what their the experience has been. You need to get a lot of references, you need to get references from judges as well as from other lawyers. They're gonna present themselves in the best light that they can, but if you really dig deep, the unfortunately some are not as good as they say they are. the ones that are Then go ahead and try to get them in your firm. And we went up to, as I said, at one point we went up to 10. That was that turned out to be too many. And and so we we didn't fire anybody, but when somebody was ready to leave, we were not concerned about that. That was fine. We tried to keep the best. We think we ended up doing that. second thing is get nice office space. That is really important. I I've looked at as I go by, you know, you drive around Thompson, you can see people who are lawyers and they a lot of them practice from their homes, which I think actually is a great idea in terms of
Chad
Mm.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
making income and keeping it. But it has to look nice. And it needs to be it looks it has to have something that makes it look like an aw a law office, particularly when somebody comes inside. We had a a nice brownstone in New Haven. There was a a group of brownstones that were all built in about 1864, so there's some nice history to that. Ours had parking in the back. That was really important. We could We it was important for us to be able to park of course, but for clients as as well it it was useful. We had extra space in the building. We b we knew that that would be helpful because then we could expand. But It in the interim we rented the space. So that was some income that came into the building and generally rented to lawyers but a couple of times to others. And that was helpful. That was good good income. And it was you know, it w every year, every month you're gonna get the rent. yeah, and I th and then the other th the another thing I think is really important for lawyers to do is go to seminars or go to workshops and
Chad
Great advice. Great advice.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
And educate yourself. I d I did that for 40 years. I d I didn't think I'd learned so much that I never needed to go to anymore to listen to other people. And every time that I would go to a national convention, which was all which was basically every year, I always learned something that was very helpful, very new. I spoke at a bunch of them. But
Chad
Yeah. Yeah.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
But it really was useful to have and then you have a connection with lawyers in almost every state. And if you have it make referrals, we make referrals. You get referrals. And those come from people that you that you knew and many of them you knew from these seminars or workshops. Another really important thing is, in my opinion, respect your opposing counsel. I don't care how stupid and or
Chad
That's good.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
Goofy or employment counsel is or obnoxious. That's more than stupid or goofy. There more often somebody who's opposing you and knows obnoxious is one that's hard to deal with, no question about it. But you have got to just show respect rather than something else. You will get somewhere with somebody like that, even when you think you're not getting there. You really will. And and what is interesting is that if you do that, generally speaking, eventually the responsibility.
Chad
Yeah. Yeah.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
Will run both ways. You get referrals after that from the lawyers that you know you thought you would never get a referral from. And and and but just the idea of how do you how do you do the best thing for your client, you do it by giving respect to the opposing counsel. Because then you're gonna get you won't get a a response in in terms of negotiation that's based on, well, I don't like this guy, so I'm not gonna vary, I'm not gonna help.
Chad
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
It goes I yeah, I think this guy is a you know he's a decent guy, or of course the guy includes women in this in for for a long time now. and and so th th respect really helps. yes it is.
Chad
Yeah, I mean it's professionalism, right? It's it's treating it's treating people other people the way you would want to be treated. And, you know, you may be going up against and I've s I've seen this. I I've I've where where it was some you know, they're bantering back and forth and and and you know, clearly one is not very organized or very prepared, which which is common. Happens. I mean, you've been in cases where the lawyer just is like, you know, did you even you know Yeah, I mean it's professionalism, right? It's it's treating it's treating people other people the way you would want to be treated. And you know, you may be going up against and I've s I've seen this. I I've where where it was some you know, they're bantering back and forth and and and you know, clearly one is not very organized or very prepared, which which is common. Happens. I mean you've been in cases where the lawyer just is like, you know
JOSEPH D GARRISON
Absolutely. In-person participant 1 You even, you know, did you do any? I mean, did you know what's going on why you're here? I mean, you want to say that internally, but you can't treat them that way, right? You have to treat them as if they're, you know, you've got to do your job defending, you know, taking care of your client, but at the same time, it can be challenging, right? You want to look at them and go, hey, I mean, do you even do you even know where you are right now? But you just can't do that, right? Did you do any I mean, did you know what's going on and why you're here? I mean, you want to say that internally, but you can't treat that way, right? You have to treat as if they're, you know, you gotta do your job defending, you know, taking care of your client. But at the same time, it can be challenging, right? To to respect to r you wanna look at and go, Hey, I mean, do you even do you even know where you are right now? But you just can't do that, right?
JOSEPH D GARRISON
Ha ha ha.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
Right.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
Yeah. Yeah, and it's not just in court. I mean, the it's more likely to occur when you're trying to negotiate or something like that. And and if you have respect even if they're not gonna show it, frankly, if you have shown respect to them, it affec it affects them and it affects them in a way that is helpful. You're trying to settle a case at the best possible monetary amount. And
Chad
Yeah. Yeah. In-person participant 1 Yeah.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
If there's respect from the other side, even when they don't show it, they're more apt to be listening to you. They're more apt to consider what you're saying as being much more persuasive. And anyway, it's a huge o huge thing to think about doing and doing it right. the other thing is you y you know, th b it's not always good things that happen in your cases. And when something bad happens in a case, you you have got to inform your client about it. You have got to do it.
Chad
Yeah. Yeah.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
because it does affect the value of the case or can and Generally speaking, where does that occur? It occurs when your client's deposition is being taken, or a witness who you thought was going to be supportive is being taken in a deposition. And there are things in the deposition that don't work out the way you wish will have wished they did. That's why they do. And we get the same thing on our side, I'll tell you, I don't know how many cases I've improved settlements by getting some really great information that I didn't understand that I would think I would get, or who knows.
Chad
Yeah. Yeah.
Chad
Why they do right? Yeah. Why they do all, right? Yeah.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
But you need to inform the client when that happens because then you really need to talk about how that has affected the value of the case. You have to be honest with the client about these things. Because clients always think that their case is worth way too much money. And so educating them on that starts really from the beginning, but it's more important when something like that happens in the time that their own depositions taking, take. And that's a that that really happens that. Same is true on the obverse side, by the way, and that is when something
Chad
Yeah. In-person participant 1 yeah. yeah.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
good happens, it's nice to be able to inform your client about that. It's nice to be able to adjust the settlement value upwards. You know? Yeah. So yeah. So I'm just saying I I have seen so many instances where it's been very clear to me that the clients have not been informed about what's going on. And and I've seen that with other lawyers and I've always sort of wondered what you know, you just gave me I your client just gave me some testimony I never expected. You must not have talked to him or her about it. In-person participant 1 Sure, yeah. For everybody. Sure, yeah. For everybody.
Chad
Mm.
Chad
Yeah.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
beforehand and and that's generally true.
Chad
Yeah. Well, so I wanted to if if we could, because we're we're running we're getting close. We got about five minutes left in our in our time together. And what what I'd what I'd love to do is is kinda let let's talk about you know forty five years, I believe is what you said. You you practice, you were you were practicing and you you walked away and and and Well, so I wanted to if if we could, because we're we're running we're getting close, we've got about five minutes left in our in our time together. And what what I'd what I'd love to do is is kind of let let's talk about you know forty five years, I believe is what you said. You you practice, you were you were practicing and you
JOSEPH D GARRISON
Okay. Sure. In-person participant 1 you walk away and and and you still you still work. You're not you're not you're not just sitting at home but but you walked away but you didn't stop. And and so you know what what does the next chapter feel like? What what is it compared to you know when you were practicing every day and and maybe for those that are you know I think you've had a great career and you you've done a lot you know You still you still work. You're not you're not you're not just sitting at home, but but you walked away but you didn't stop. And and so, you know, what what does the next chapter feel like? What what is it compared to, you know, men you were practicing every day? And and maybe for those that are you know I think you've had a great career and you you've done a lot. you know, being a lawyer is is serving the people and you've done that and Being a lawyer is is serving the people and you've done that and you know had forty-five years, built a lot of relationships, still have relationships, and now you're kinda in this next chapter, or so to speak, or however you want to say it. You know, what what does that look like to you? And and and maybe maybe like giving to the next generation listening, like, man, if I could go back to 1970, this is the way I would do it. You know, we've had forty five years, built a lot of relationships, still have relationships, and now you're kinda in this next chapter, or so to speak, or however you want to say it. You know, what what does that look like you? And and and maybe maybe like giving to the next generation is listening, like, man, if I could go back to nineteen seventy, this is the way I would do it.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
All right. Well if if if I were going back to 1970, what I would do is just think very, very, very carefully about the most important component of your practice, and that is the clients that you select. Now that's different in the plainer side than the defense side. Obviously, the defense the defense defense bar can't really select their clients and
Chad
Ha ha ha.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
Many many respects. I mean the you know, the the firm has got a bunch of clients and they assign them to you and so on. That's fine. But on the plaintiff's side, you you you have to select your clients. And and so there are certain questions that I I would say you need to really think about. Number one is should you charge a consultation fee for a a prospective client? My answer to that has been for all the years, yes. And there are a couple of reasons why. I I think it should be less than your normal hourly fee, at least it always has been for us. It ought to be something that people can probably afford, although s some may not. In-person participant 1 Duke.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
If people are r reluctant or don't pay a consult fee, what that means to me is they wouldn't have been a very good client. Because they do have to spend money in the course of a case. I don't advance we we made a practice as much as we could not to advance money for clients because the clients have to have some skin in the game, just what people talk about all the time. It really is important. And and if you think it's not In-person participant 1 Mm.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
Go back and think about who were your worst clients. I'll bet they were the ones that didn't pay any money at all. I really bet that's true. And so anyway, I always think there should be a consultation fee, and depending on how your fee are structured otherwise, you know, probably not the full hourly amount, but something that makes a difference and and looks like, you know, you're somebody who s someone would have to pay to see.
Chad
Mm.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
someone that you know, they just need to put out a little extra themselves and get involved in the game in that way. I think it's very important. Second thing is, what that what the consult fee situation will be is that you know, sometimes that will mean you won't get a prospective client. My view of that has always been that's fine. You probably didn't want that person anyway. In the end you would have been sorry you did it. But the but then the next thing is are you In-person participant 1 Yeah. Yeah.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
gonna meet with them or you're just gonna talk on the phone or what are you gonna do? I think you need to meet with them. People, everybody knows people, you're different when you when you're talking to somebody directly than if you're just talking on the phone or something like that and you never see the person. You can be it can be very nice on a telephone call, but if the person really came in all of a sudden you might see something quite different. you you it could be as you In-person participant 1 Sure. Sure. Sure. Sure.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
There are there's so many things that could be that that would say to you, I don't like this person. That's the key. If you don't like the person, do not take a person as a client that you don't like. I don't care how good the case is. I learned my own lessons from this, from from taking clients that I didn't like and ended up they took In-person participant 1 Yeah. Yeah.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
You know how how you say sometimes the the best clients take about twenty five percent of your your time and the bet worst clients take the other seventy five. Yeah. That's what it is. That is what it is. And you and you you will learn who the worst ones might be by meeting them. In-person participant 1 Yeah. that that that's in everything. That's true. Yeah. That's in everything. That's true.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
And and you can't learn it otherwise. So all you l young lawyers that think you know or or others, I don't care how who, but if you don't do it, start to do it. It it'll take you a little more time, but it t that time is absolutely worth it. Because if you take a bad client, like just like I said, that's gonna be in your 75% time frame where you don't want it to be. In-person participant 1 That's great. That's great. That's great. In-person participant 1 That's good. That's good. In-person participant 1 Yeah. Well Joe, this has been an absolute fantastic time with this podcast. A lot of a lot of great stuff here and and being able to have this opportunity to to you know, such a such a great career you've had and have a chance to talk to you and and and really, you know, my hope is is that Yeah. Well, Joe, this has been an absolute fantastic time with this podcast. A lot of a lot of great stuff here and and being able to have this opportunity to to you know, such a such a great career you've had and have a chance to talk to you and and and really, you know, my hope is is that people that are out there that listen, whether you're a lawyer or you're in business, I think a lot of what you said is so relevant and and in business world and whether it be a lawyer or whatever you're doing is people that are out there that are listening, whether you're a lawyer or you're in business, I think a lot of what you said is so relevant and and in business world and whether it be a lawyer or whatever you're doing is is is perspective. You know, I that's the word that kept coming up to me as you were talking is the your perspective. You know, be who you say you're gonna be and do what you say you're gonna do is one of the most important things a person can do. And and if I had to s I I'm not s putting words in your mouth, but is is perspective. You know, I that's the word that kept coming up to me as you were talking is the your perspective. You know, be who you say you're gonna be and do what you say you're gonna do is one of the most important things a person can do. And and if I had to s I I'm not s putting words in your mouth, but I have a firm belief after spending some time with you that that's exactly who you are. I have a firm belief after spending some time with you that that is exactly who you are.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
Well thank you. It sounds like sounds like you're thinking well of me and I also appreciate that. And what I what I would say is that if you know if people are interested at all that they could they you can give them my email. I it's fine with me if you want to. but if people have some you know questions or observations or something or they or they w even want to talk with me, it's fine with me. I'll but I'm like I say I'm retired and and doing quite well and so I'm I'm not gonna charge for time. But that that that that could that could be it. But anyway, I've enjoyed this and I do hope some people that have been listening have learned something from it that could help In-person participant 1 Listen to me, the only time you get Joe without being charged, so you better take advantage of it. This is me the only time you get Joe without being charged, so you better take advantage of it. In-person participant 1 Well, I I think it's I think it's great and and we're gonna we're gonna put this out there and hopefully have some people to to hear it. So thank you again for for for doing this. Thanks for being a guest. I've really enjoyed my time with you. and enjoy retirement. I hope you're gonna do some fun stuff. I don't know if you're a golfer or maybe a fisherman or t hey, well good for you. So Well, I I think it's I think it's great and and we're gonna we're gonna put this out there and hopefully have some people to to hear it. So thank you again for for for doing this. Thank you for being a guest. I've really enjoyed my time with you. and enjoy retirement. I hope you're gonna do some fun stuff. I don't know if you're a golfer or maybe a fisherman or t hey. Well, good for you. So
JOSEPH D GARRISON
I'm a I'm a tennis player. Tennis and pickleball. I'm pickleball too now. Yep.
Chad
Y you know, pickleball is going crazy. Everybody's loving pickleball and grate great great exercise, right? Do your wife play too? You know pickleball is going crazy. Everybody's loving pickleball. And great great great exercise, right? Your wife play too? Okay.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
Yeah. Yep. Yes. She doesn't but she swims. So she's she's got the other really great exercise and she does that every day. Yep.
Chad
Okay. Yeah, look at you guys. Well good well good for you. And again, thank you so much for being on. Really enjoyed it and look forward to having more conversations with you, hopefully down the road. Yeah, look at you guys. Well good for you. And again, thank you so much for being on. Really enjoyed it and look forward to having more conversations with you, hopefully down the road. All right.
JOSEPH D GARRISON
Thanks, Chad. It's been a pleasure for me.
Chad
All right.
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