Chris Gorges
Thompson & Prince
NYU MBA Quits Wall Street to Build a Branding Agency | Chris Gorges
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"I could have just stayed the path. And and made the MBA worth it. It's a very expensive investment. and I could have gone and made nearly $200,000 my first year out of MBA. And instead I kind of stuck to my guns and said, hey, I I did this for a reason and I need to dive into this
Key Takeaways
- ◆Chris turned down a PWC offer post-MBA that would have paid nearly $200,000 his first year and deliberately chose advertising as a strategist to learn how to work with designers and developers, treating the credential as a tool for career redirection rather than a ticket to predictable income.
- ◆At Drogafive, he combined analytical MBA skills with creative thinking by researching and building a case for or against blue ocean ideas for clients like Spotify before senior leadership pitched them, testing concepts like voice-recognition on-hold music that reduced perceived wait time from 15 minutes to 4 minutes.
- ◆During COVID when clients paused contracts due to constrained budgets, Chris turned to vintage hat sales at flea markets and built it to 1,000 to 2,000 dollars a week by developing an eye for what resells, then expanded from hats to clothes and decor through his Department of Vintage account.
- ◆For small businesses with 3,000 to 10,000 dollar budgets, Chris competes with cheap AI subscriptions costing 200 dollars by showing his portfolio and promising differentiation, but acknowledges he cannot convince clients if they choose AI since he can only prove the difference after the work is done.
- ◆Chris uses AI to generate starting points for website copy and messaging where clients previously paid 5,000 dollars for research and focus groups, now charging 1,000 dollars instead and saving clients money while keeping human judgment on final messaging and design.
- ◆He builds referral partnerships with larger agencies so when a client's budget exceeds Thompson & Prince's capacity or requires specialized expertise, he connects them to partners rather than turning work away or overpromising.
- ◆When clients feel panicked mid-project, Chris resets them to trust the process by pointing to previous successful work that went through identical iterations, then asks them to give feedback and collaborate rather than abandon direction.
Full transcript
Show
Chad Paris
What's up, everyone? I'm Chad Paris, and this is Process Over Pressure, the podcast where we talk to the people who left the safe path to build something that actually matters to them. No highlight reels, no LinkedIn polish, just the real story, the mistakes, the close calls, and a moment they decided they'd rather bet on themselves than keep trading time for someone else's dreams. If you've ever thought about walking away from the steady paycheck, or you already did, and you're wondering if you made the right call. You're in the right place. Let's get into it. Today's guest, Chris Gorges, is the founder of Thompson and Prince, a branding star a branding agency that works with startups, small business, and the occasional enterprise clients who want something that doesn't look like it came out of a template. He's got an MBA from NYU Stern, which means he could have taken the Wall Street route, the consulting route, the safe route, but he didn't. He chose branding because he wanted to build something with his hands, or at least his taste. He splits time between North Carolina and Brooklyn. He's got a side hustle, flipping vintage clothes because he likes old logos and textures and staying close to the thing that inspired him in the first place. And he's the only agency, only agency owner I've talked to who will tell you straight up that AI might actually put him out of business. And he's still trying to figure out what that means. Chris, thanks for being here.
Chris Gorges
Thanks for having me, Chad.
Chad Paris
So let's start where we're you know, a lot of people probably listening going, this guy's went, you know, he got an MBA from from NYU. Like, like what what's he doing here? You know, because look, NYU Stern is a fantastic school. It's not like it's an easy MBA. I mean, there is no easy NBA, but you, you know, you you went to a prestigious school. and you could have done anything. I mean, you could you like I said, you could have walked into consulting, you could have done banking, I mean, you private equity, whatever, right? and probably had a lot of opportunity to do that. But you chose a different path. Walk me through that decision and what made you decide to do that.
Chris Gorges
Yeah, so I actually I started my career in management consulting. So I went to UNC Chapel Hill undergrad. thought I was gonna go to law school. Once I was writing my essays for law school, I realized I didn't want to do that. And so I ended up taking the very, you know, with a business degree, the most generic path you could find coming out of undergrad business school. And I went into consulting. So I worked at IBM. Global Business Services and Booz Allen Hamilton for about five years in DC, pre-MBA. wearing a suit, carrying around my little IBM ThinkPad computer, traveling, living in a hotel, doing the whole thing. and got to do some really cool projects. I was working primarily with government clients. and I actually went and got my MBA as a career switch opportunity. So a lot of my classmates were looking to get into what I had been doing already, or some version of it and what I wanted to accomplish out of an MBA. I wrote my essays, for better or for worse, about doing creative consulting for startups. And I didn't know what that meant, but I knew that I was a good art student growing up and I knew that I liked the idea of entrepreneurship. my my dad also took a very non-traditional path. From sar pharmaceutical engineering and selling antiques. So I kind of grew up with an entrepreneurial gene, and I figured some combination of creativity and startups was what I wanted to do. and so it probably was a a relatively not appealing application essay for some of the schools because they were like, you know, this guy doesn't want to follow the traditional path. but luckily, you know, I I interviewed well at NYU and folks there saw something in what I wanted to do. and I went to business school. And while all my friends were going through the consulting and banking interviews, I was diving into the startup ecosystem in New York City and learning about ad agencies and learning about branding agencies and looking into innovation consulting. so I I used my MBA more as a career pivot opportunity to hit pause.
Chris Gorges
For two years and to dive into an ecosystem that I was unfamiliar with. And then you leverage that to pivot into I actually ended up starting an advertising post-MBA. And I actually did get caught up in the wave of the groupthink of interviewing for those big consulting type firms. I had an offer at PWC. I could have just stayed the path. And and made the MBA worth it. It's a very expensive investment. and I could have gone and made nearly $200,000 my first year out of MBA. And instead I kind of stuck to my guns and said, hey, I I did this for a reason and I need to dive into this creative route. So I went into advertising as strat as a strategist post-MBA to learn the ropes of working with designers and developers and and working with different types of clients than I had been in the past.
Chad Paris
I think you have such a unique story. I mean, would you say how how many people do you know go get an MBA that come out doing branding?
Chris Gorges
probably more now. I don't I don't think it's as crazy as it was back when I graduated in 2013. I in my class, I think, you know, there are a few big branding firms. one of my professors at NYU, Scott Galloway, who's a a pretty famous podcaster, talking head, he founded a firm called Profit. So I think one or two of my classmates went into Profit, but that was more of a a corporate branding studio.
Chad Paris
Yeah.
Chad Paris
Yeah.
Chris Gorges
angle that I wanted to pursue focused on startups was essentially non existent. and you do find a lot of MBAs coming out these days going into startups and working in product roles. but that was almost essentially non existent back in two thousand thirteen as well. So it's pretty rare.
Chad Paris
Yeah.
Chad Paris
Yeah. I mean I would I would think at that time i it was rare, but you know, had had you had a creative kind of a spirit early on? Is that something that you you kind of I guess when you 'cause being Brandon, you gotta have obviously you you like like your you like the vintage clothes, you love logos and stuff like that. So when when did you realize like you had this creative kind of side to you that you really inspires you and kind of motivates you?
Chris Gorges
Well, it it was always there. I've always loved art. I've always loved drawing and sketching. you know, my mom can probably give you a better perspective on that. I was drawing pictures of people and houses when I was really, really young. and so if if my mom had had her choice of where I went to college, I would have not gone to Carolina. I would have gone to art school. and then I you know, I gave that up going into consulting. there's not a ton of visual creativity or storytelling creativity that goes on in management consulting. But where I you know, a moment that I really realized this is something I was good at and something I had an eye for, when I was in consulting, I would kind of always be the last person that my team would send a deck to. And I would go through and I would make sure the headers were aligned. I would make sure the font sizes were perfect. You know, I can spot a 13 versus a 12 font from a mile away.
Chad Paris
Well.
Chris Gorges
And and a lot of people can't see that. And I would go through and I would update the charts and make sure all the colors were aligned, make sure all the photos were aligned perfectly. And nobody else on my team at IBM or Booz Allen Hamilton cared about that stuff at all. But they'd see the deck the next morning after I had gotten my hands on it and they'd say, Wow, it looks a little bit better. And and we don't really know what about it is better, but whatever Chris did was good. And as that happened more and more, I kind of realized that I cared
Chad Paris
Yeah.
Chris Gorges
a little bit more than a lot of the folks I worked with about the the visual mix of creativity, but in service of clear communication. and so that's kind of what sparked like maybe, maybe I have a little bit more of an eye for this creative visual stuff than the current field that I'm in.
Chad Paris
What what was you know, when you which which I I mean you it is it's a talent, right? I mean we're all built different, we all have different things that we're good at. I think that's a really unique. Like listening to you say I could spot a font a mile away, I couldn't do that. That's not where my brain is and that's what's makes us unique and being able to do that. So, you know, you have an MBA, you're in branding, you got this creative eye, which is a amazing combination. You get that first client. Like you come out, you get that first client. Where did you find yourself, I guess, leaning toward? Was it more the MBA side of it or the creative side of it? When that first client, like what did you learn about the skills that you've kind of just walked out of school with and the the natural gift that you have and how that could align with a with a s a client? Like I I'm sure that first one kind of gave you a lot of like, okay, there I c how I can see both of these worlds work.
Chris Gorges
Yeah. Well, my my first post MBA role was actually a freelance role at an advertising agency called Drogafive, which is now part of Deloitte or Accenture, I can't remember. and they were kind of like the hottest ad agency in the world at the time. and I found myself through some really serious hustle in networking working with one of the co-founders of the agency in a kind of a a weird non-traditional role where I would meet with him every Monday morning and he would throw out these big kind of blue ocean ideas that they had for some of their clients. And he'd say, hey Chris, use your MBA ex-management consultant analytical mind to dig through this idea. And by the end of the week, I want you to make a case for or against presenting this idea to the client. And so that's a very MBA type skill set. You know, I was doing I was doing market research. I was putting together a narrative to pitch ideas for I did some stuff for Spotify, the Brooklyn Nets, MGM Grand, and and it was that combination of deep research and applying kind of an innovative approach for those clients that it just made sense. and those those weren't
Chad Paris
Wow. Yeah.
Chad Paris
That's cool.
Chris Gorges
You know, that I wasn't working directly with those clients. It was more that I was working internally to allow this very senior leader at the company to then go to Spotify and present a wild out there idea. You know, we were researching stuff like, we did a a voice recognition system for Spotify, you know. And and I went and found partners that might be interested in this idea of, hey, what if you called JetBlue and you were changing your flight and you were on hold? And instead of having to listen to piped in music or advertising, what if it said, Welcome to On Hold by Spotify, you know, supported by JetBlue? Who would you like to listen to today? And you say the Rolling Stones. And then we would pipe in music, the top ten songs from the Rolling Stones on Spotify. And we were doing the very analytical work of testing, you know, if you're on hold for 10 minutes with elevator music, if you're on hold for 10 minutes with advertising, or if you're on hold for 10 minutes listening to a band you like, how long do you perceive that that on hold moment was? And it kind of came out. I don't remember the exact data, but
Chad Paris
wow.
Chris Gorges
If you're listening to Pipedin music and you were on hold for 10 minutes, you maybe thought it was 12. If you were listening to advertising, it's a brutal experience and you thought it was 15. If you're listening to the Rolling Stones, you'd say, I think I was on hold for like four minutes. And and so that experience was, you know, an improvement and it was an innovative use of the client's opportunity for, you know, sharing the Spotify experience to more users. And that was a very kind of analytical approach, but to a very creative solution.
Chad Paris
No, that's that's really, really, really cool. And and and again, that's you having that being able to take that 'cause you're right. I mean, analytical MBA, right? I mean, that's where you learn that skill. But being able to come back and and and the fact that that that you was able to kinda I don't know how you like that, but I think that's really cool where you got to work with them a little bit and then turn around and and and like present like here we go, like this is this is where I you know
Chris Gorges
And then we we we pitched that to Spotify and they were like, Well, that's cool, but we want you guys to make ads for us. But it was it was part of the ethos of that company to show Spotify that even if you don't buy this idea, which I do think would have been an amazing idea and they should have done it, but but it but it's not like they were upset. They were like, That's really cool. That's that's great that you guys thought through this creatively, applied technology creatively.
Chad Paris
Huh. Yeah.
Chad Paris
Think it is too.
Chad Paris
Yeah.
Chris Gorges
'Cause again, this is 2013, like even applying voice recognition technology was really kind of new. and so I was there to just convince our clients that we were thinking outside the box. And I I've seen little hints of that come through every now and then. I still think
Chad Paris
Yeah.
Chad Paris
Anybody ever do that?
Chad Paris
Yeah. I love that idea by the way. I think that's the coolest thing ever.
Chris Gorges
It it would have been good. if anybody out there's listening.
Chad Paris
I would rather listen to Rolling Stones than listen to somebody sit there and go with elevator music all day long, right?
Chris Gorges
Yeah. And we we tested it in front of We did a fake phone call and s we we allowed the client to just name a band and it pulled it up and started playing the top ten songs and it it worked. but again, they were they were already a big multi billion dollar corporation at the time and they like, that's cool. We don't want to deal with partnerships, let's just do ads.
Chad Paris
They just cool.
Chad Paris
Okay. Well, hey, you know what? I I I can tell I can see why you you you got great, you know, being able to be creative in ideas. That that I think that's cool. But anyway, so so you n so so let's talk a little bit about your your your little side hustle, your vintage hustle, your the human, you know, the human side of you and what you love. I I I think it's really cool. So so so tell us a little bit about what you do and and why you do this this vintage old logos. What what how did you get into that?
Chris Gorges
well again, like I said, my my dad sells antiques. So I've always had old stuff around me. We went to all fifty states growing up, family trips, going to antique shows and yard sales and flea markets. So I've always loved old stuff. and it started during COVID. Business was really slow. we don't lock any of our clients really into into contracts. So during when COVID started, a lot of my clients said, Hey, we're gonna pause where we are and you know, and 'cause their budgets were constrained, their business was slow. And so I didn't have a lot going on. And I passed by a flea market one day and they had a big pile of hats, old hats, tobacco. I'm in eastern North Carolina. Barbecue restaurants, car dealerships. And I wanted a few of those hats. And it was a pile of probably about 200. And I asked the lady if I could buy all of them. and she said, make me an offer. And I had already told her that I was kind of newly back in North Carolina from New York. moved back to Raleigh during COVID. And I said, I don't know, 25 bucks for the pile. And she's like, you know. Don't lowball me. I know you came down from New York. And I was like, all right, we're we're negotiating. And she said, I was like, tell me what you want to counter. And she said, 30. And I was like, all right, well, we can do that. And so I bought this big pile of hats for 30 bucks and like an idiot, threw them in the washing machine. You're not supposed to do that with old hats, apparently. And cleaned them up, ruined a lot of the really good ones. And then I just started posting a few of them online that I thought were really cool on Instagram. And all of a sudden I kind of got a few offers, people saying, Hey, I'll buy that hat for 40 bucks. I'll buy that hat for 50 bucks. And I dove into a new thing that I had never really researched at all, which was just hats to start. And then I kind of realized that I could make a thousand, sometimes two thousand bucks a week, go into thrift shops and junk stores buying hats and
Chris Gorges
developed a little bit of an eye for it and you know certain things that you look out for. And I started selling hats and then that's evolved to clothes and decor and things like that. And you know, a lot of people have hobbies like playing golf that cost them money. it's always been a kind of a thing in our family is we we develop hobbies that we turn into businesses. and so it's just, you know, a side hustle that's fun. So I create a little account called Department of Vintage. And you know, still do it now leads to storage units full of stuff, but it's it's a fun thing. And you know, I just love discovering old branding and cool cool logos on hats and you know, sharing that and preserving it. And you know, I believe in you know, the cyclical economy and trying to avoid fast fashion and all that. So I'm doing my little part to keep cool stuff in the market.
Chad Paris
That's cool.
Chad Paris
I I think that's I think that's actually a really amazing story. I mean, you when you talk about you you know what we can often do, right? I mean, that's you taking something that you're passionate about and and ha and you have an eye for it, 'cause I I don't have that eye, but you do and and taking that and it's fun it it's not like work 'cause it's fun to you. Like you enjoy that. And so, you know, other people do too. Like I'm I've sitting here to listen when you were talking, like Man, I love the old I love the old sport team logos, the old logos. Like I really love that kind of stuff. And I was just thinking, like, man, I I had an old Jets hat one time that was the old logo with a plane on it, you know, the the jet. And I'm like, man, that was so cool. Everything today is so, you know, like everything looks the same today in in say in a sense. And you go back to that old branding logos like that, like there are some really, really cool vintage logos that
Chris Gorges
Yeah.
Chad Paris
That you just can't find any more and I think that's cool.
Chris Gorges
Yeah. I there's a lot of that stuff on my social media feeds comparing old old sports logos to new ones and how everything's kind of been sanitized and everything kind of looks the same. so I love I love the old stuff where, you know, sports teams and colleges used to have really unique personality. and, you know, and vintage these days, it's kind of crazy to think about, but like eighties, nineties, like that's hardcore vintage at this point 'cause it's thirty, forty years old.
Chad Paris
Yeah.
Chad Paris
I did.
Chris Gorges
And the designs used to just be really out there. and you know, it's cool finding that stuff. And, you know, I'm a Carolina guy. So I'll if I find a cool Carolina thing, I'm probably gonna keep it. But, you know, if I find something from NC State, I'm not an NC State fan, but I'm gonna buy it and try to sell it to somebody who's gonna find it cool.
Chad Paris
Yeah. Yeah. I mean it it that's I think that's really cool. And I think it's you know it's it's i and and I and I say that because I think that's what one of the things that I that stood out with me when I was talking to you before is like even on your like your LinkedIn, like you talk about this, like every everything today is so AI driven. I mean it really is. Like you you know, you can't even I mean I get I get mess people sending me, you know, you know, pictures of Instagram messages where they're like, Hey, did you see this? And it's AI created. Like, you know, and and people a lot of people can't tell it's AI created. They're they're just like, man, this is really cool. Like, but your, you know, your content and what you try to do, even on your LinkedIn, it's very human element. And and I like that. And and and so, you know, for you with that that mindset of what you do every day with the world that we're living in in AI, how do you how do you navigating that?
Chris Gorges
Yeah, I mean, getting into what we do on a daily basis, you know, we work with a really broad range of clients across industries. And some do need real out there creative work. but since we do work with a lot of small businesses, service businesses, solopreneurs, a lot of our clients just need something good, and something clean and something thoughtful. And AI can go in any number of directions. AI sometimes sanitizes stuff way too far down, makes it too simple, too generic, you know, using iconography that you could find off of any, you know, stock icon website. And then sometimes it swings on the other direction where, you know, you're building a logo for an accounting firm and you it gives you something crazy with, you know, out wild out there fonts. And for an accounting firm, there's a, you know, there's a middle ground you need to meet. of professional, clean, some level of creativity, some level of differentiation, but it still needs to look pretty traditional and not out there. and so a lot of what we do is striking the balance of bringing in old school, classic, traditional elements, and then when necessary, bringing in the cool stuff. I think currently a lot of the AI design kind of mishmashes all of that together because it's just built off of these large language models that essentially boil everything down to the most generic acceptable version of visuals. and I think some of that nuance ends up getting lost. so, you know, we're working with a a boat business right now. And we're in the early stages of crafting a logo for that boat business.
Chad Paris
Agree.
Chris Gorges
And boats kind of have two extremes. You either want to look kind of extreme and fast, like a, you know, an aggressive modern car company, or you might want to look really traditional with a script font, feels like an old, you know, an old hunting comp old hunting brand or an old traditional camo brand. and striking that balance requires currently the nuance of a human eye, a human taste.
Chad Paris
Yep.
Chris Gorges
that AI would probably just spit out something that would look pretty good, but it might not really span that spectrum of old school to modern. And so a lot of the work we do is kind of finding that nuance and then whittling down on what the client actually wants within that spectrum.
Chad Paris
Yeah, you know, you know, for for small business or entrepreneurs, you know, a lot of times like you know, I think I think you something that's so true in what you're saying, right? I mean the the easy button is just to go in and have AI do it or create something or whatever, but everybody's doing that. And so e everything looks the same and there's nothing standing out. And I love what you said there is taking AI, but but that human element to it to be able to have that eye, because you want to be different, right? I mean, that's the whole idea behind branding, is is you don't want to look like everything else. And so, you know, with with this world of of AI and availability and everybody trying to grapple grapple to that, how do you how do you walk a client through that to say, you know, why should I use Chris? Like why do I need to do that? 'Cause I think Yeah, I think that's where people get hung up is it's like, well, it's just easy to do that. But but what's happened is is I I'm I'm I'm a firm believer. I think it's hurting them down the road because they're not looking any different. They're not they're not being, you know, you know, they're just kind of the same.
Chris Gorges
Yeah, it's it's tough because, you know, I am a small business owner myself. So I very much empathize. and I've I've built software companies on my own that have failed, and it's a very expensive endeavor. and so a lot of our business is predicated on a few bigger chunk projects a year with clients that have budget and they're not really going to argue with us and say, you could use AI to make that more efficient. But a lot of our companies are smaller businesses that have, you know, a three, five, maybe ten thousand dollar budget. And we're providing them an alternative of, hey, for a logo and a visual identity and a website, we're gonna charge you 10 grand. And if the alternative is for them to buy a month long subscription to Claude and use Claude Design, and it costs them 200 bucks and some of their time. I can't really argue with them if they just if they go with that option. And all I can do is tell them what I just said, which is you might get something that works, but you're probably not going to get something that's truly differentiated. And you're going to miss some of that nuance in both your messaging and in your visuals. but it's it's a tough balance because I I fully empathize with.
Chad Paris
True.
Chris Gorges
You know, you're in the early stages of your p of building a company and that five or ten grand really means a lot. And all I can do is promise that we're gonna put everything we can into giving them something that will stand out in the market and will be unique. and the proof is essentially in the pudding, once it's done, that they can kind of then look at whatever they had mocked up in Claude or Chat GPT and compare it to what they ended up with. But they can only see that difference once the work is done.
Chad Paris
Yeah. Sure.
Chris Gorges
And so it's a lot of upfront making promises and saying, hey, look at our portfolio. If you want something that looks and feels like these other businesses we've worked with, then you know, I know it's going to be a little bit of an investment, but know that we're going to treat you as well as we can. but if they want to go down the AI route, I can't really do much to convince folks because it's a it's a big investment.
Chad Paris
Yeah. And and you're and you're right. And and I but I I even in my business what I what I see and and I and look I use AI all the time and I I I'm very clear about where the line is on where AI and I and I have been from the beginning is that y what what what's happening in my opinion and and I'd love to hear your thoughts on it is that you know we live in this we live in this this The world we're in today, I want it now. Like I don't want to wait. I want it now, right? I want to be able to go in and say, I need you, Claude, like Claude, I need you to do X, Y, and Z and D and it's done. Like we can check that box and go on, right? And and there's nothing wrong with that wanting that. The the reality is is that we're using a we're using something that's not intended to be used that way. We're we're we're we're crossing the lines. And so I I I have this conversation all the time with people. It's like You you have to keep all these AI tools as a tool. Like that's where they need to stay. They're they're they're gonna give you yes, they're gonna give you good stuff, but you gotta understand that it's it's probably the same stuff that they're gonna give if someone else asks that. It's it's it's generalized, right? It's kind of a great way to so so I say it like this. It's a great way to put all your thoughts and put it into categories, but if you really want it to make an impact, you've got to have some human element in there because you you If not, then then you're just gonna get regurgitated stuff.
Chris Gorges
No. And it is it is a great tool. And I and I do now again, I lose some work to clients to say, hey, we're gonna use AI for everything. And I I can't do anything about that. we win some work where we can use AI, particularly for copy and text on a website or in a marketing document, where we would say, Hey, in the past we would have to charge you five thousand dollars for
Chad Paris
Yeah.
Chris Gorges
the thought and the research and the focus groups or whatever to get really tight differentiated messaging. But now for with a text approach, you know, it's really good at generating ideas. And we can take that and say, hey, we're not going to have to charge you $5,000 anymore. We'll charge you a thousand instead. You know, just throwing out random numbers. And so we'll be we'll have good starting points of stuff. And so we can save you some money.
Chad Paris
Yeah. Yeah.
Chris Gorges
And we're going to create some ideas. I'm still going to run through it with a fine-tooth comb, either me or one of my copywriters, and we're going to make sure it feels human. but we can bypass some of those steps for better or for worse. and we do that we do that a little bit with design as well. if some if a client really just says, Hey, we we want to see five different versions of the hero section of this website. In the past, I would have to pay one of my designers to do that work and to manually create it. Now with generative fill, we can take a photo that previously would have never worked on a, you know, on a landscape hero section of a website. And we can pop in general to f generative fill, create a mock up, and something that would have in the past required me to charge that client 500 bucks for an exploration. We can crank it out in a few minutes. And and move the process forward. So it is really great for mocking up quick ideas and concepts. But again, we are not currently at a point, and I don't I don't plan to be at that point anytime soon of just doing everything with AI. because then that takes away the reason why I do this in the first place. I like that hands-on approach. I like being able to influence the layouts and the fonts and the colors. and it's just not fun to me if if I just hit a button and generate something for a client. And I think that's doing a disservice to the clients, if we were to do that.
Chad Paris
I I I and I and I agree. And that's why, you know, when we go through from the very beginning of your story is that that there is and and I'll and I'm a consultant. Look, I'm telling people this all the time. Like Don't hear me. I'm not dismissing AI. That's not what I'm trying to do. What I'm telling you is, though, is that AI is good as a tool. That human element, that human eye, that human part of adding to it is what makes it even better. If we get to a place where, like you or or anybody else, that we don't use that human, you know, element part of it and we just use the AI part of it, then we're gonna look like everybody else. And that's what makes that, you know, there's a reason why.
Chris Gorges
Yes.
Chad Paris
you have a creative mind and and in what you do. Like if we if we if we don't use that, you're making we're making something that can be really good, really great. And I think that's where, you know, what what you do is is is different and unique because you you still have that human element. There's a lot of listen, there's a lot of branding companies that don't do anything, but AI does it all for And charging thousands.
Chris Gorges
I I in my every every day I wake up and my inbox is full of other vendors saying, Hey, it looks like the work you do is really manual. We could add AI to your process. And, you know, they're just full scale branding agencies that do everything with AI. And, you know, I could I could take one of those and subcontract it and probably make a lot of money, but that's Just not what I want to do. Yeah.
Chad Paris
That's not who you are. And I think that's cool. And I think that I I I I think I appreciate it. I like that. I think it's great. And I think that's smart. So so you talked a little bit about you kind of got a little rebuild ahead here. we're last segment here, and we're moving into your your new website's about to launch. Why don't you tell us a little bit about it and kind of what you're what you're doing with that and give us a give us a little little preview about it.
Chris Gorges
Yeah, so our if if you go to Thomsonand Prince . com right now, you know, the old cobbler's kid scenario, we build amazing websites for our clients every day. our website's probably about seven years out of date, because I have not hopped on board and just had AI recreate it. so we have a new website launching soon. we're moving a lot of our client work to Webflow. We previously, when we started the company in 2018, we built most everything on WordPress. Webflow wasn't quite as prevalent. so we have a new site coming, hopefully in a couple weeks, that's gonna be full of case studies and stories and just really representing the really broad breadth and depth of the work that we do for our clients. so currently I send a really long email to all my client prospects with links and PDFs and hopefully, you know, our new website will Be a bit better at just telling that story and letting people kind of see who we are at the outset instead of having to find out once they get in touch with us.
Chad Paris
What what made you to kind of decide to redo that? I I I think that's really cool and you know, you're a branding person, so you're you know, we're always evolving, right? I mean, we're always trying to get better. So what what get what brought you to that point? 'Cause I know it's I know it's a big thing you're kinda talking about a little bit now, so
Chris Gorges
Yeah.
Chris Gorges
So we're we're not an SEO agency, we're not a marketing agency, we are a branding firm. So my goal has never been to optimize our site to make it so if anybody in the world Googles branding agency, they find us. we're probably not a great fit for most companies. Again, we have our niche. We like to work with early stage businesses, we like to work with venture back tech startups. and you know, we just need a a better presence to really show that that breadth and depth of the work that we do specific for startups. so it it's like anything. It's one of those little internal things that we have all the case studies, we have all the imagery, and we just need to get it out there that, you know, who knows, maybe we'll still not really get a ton of inbound from the website, but it'll be a better quick reference point for our clients and client prospects. it'll probably remain the same. Our our business model is essentially that we work with a wide range of partners, other agencies that do stuff that we don't do. we work with PR firms and videography agencies and SEO firms that send us work. They they have a client that wants to do SEO, but they might say, Hey, before you do SEO, you might want to rebrand or you might want to update some elements of your website. And we work with a lot of venture capital firms as well. that, you know, I've known, I've I got you know, relationships that I started back when I was in business school diving into the startup community in New York. so a lot of those VC firms will send us their their their new portfolio companies or portfolio companies that they've spoken with about rebranding. so our our business will probably still rely on those relationships for for new business opportunities. But you know, it's always good to just have more out there on on what we do and make it easier for people to see the the range of work that we do.
Chad Paris
That's cool. So last we're we're moving into what's called, I call it the quick fire round. This is gonna be five questions. there's no right or wrong answer. It's just whatever pops into your head when I ask. So I'll I'll we'll start there and we'll go. So here we go. Are you ready? All right. One belief about your industry that you no longer hold.
Chris Gorges
Ready.
Chris Gorges
probably the the AI thing. I I think I probably used to have that old school management consulting approach that everything required deep research and focus groups and the stuff that's really hard to sell into clients and budget that they don't want to allocate. And now I just don't really believe we need that as much. I think with AI we can get to thoughtful insights really quickly that we can act upon. and yeah, we don't need to charge a client fifteen thousand dollars for focus groups anymore.
Chad Paris
Most exp this is kind of a toughie, but I I think it's a good one. Most expensive mistake you'd happily make again.
Chris Gorges
Happily is a push. but again, I I mentioned that I tried to start a software company on my own, bootstrapping it. I spent nearly a hundred thousand dollars and countless hours of my own time building a tech company called Ever Harbor, which is still on my LinkedIn. the URL doesn't work anymore. but I learned a ton. I I worked with I think six different agencies and
Chad Paris
Yeah.
Chris Gorges
partners to try to build a marketplace for creative agencies, which seems kind of counterintuitive. I wanted to create a a place to find other agencies like mine. so you might find me or you might find one of my competitors. But my entire idea was that you should be able to filter by, and and this is both for talent looking to work at agencies, but also for brands looking to work with agencies. You know, I'm looking for a company in Kansas City that does logo design for healthcare. And I only want to work with a company that's less than 10 people. Filter, filter, filter. Here are the three companies that meet those requirements. that was a boondoggle. I always compare it to flipping a coin. It's like I flipped a coin on six different vendors, and every single time, if heads was a good result and tails was a bad result, I got tails six times in a row.
Chad Paris
Yes.
Chris Gorges
but my referral network that is a good source of both projects and passive revenue when I refer work out to my partner agencies, probably would have never existed were it not for the work that went into building those networks and those partnerships. so I could look at it as a a pure hundred thousand dollar failed endeavor, or I could look at it as yeah, I've probably made a hundred thousand dollars.
Chad Paris
Yeah.
Chris Gorges
based on that foundational work. And so I think it's all and so the the the takeaway there is personally as a somebody who likes spinning up new ideas, you know, it was a worthwhile pursuit because it created a a part of my business that's somewhat unique. You don't find every aid agency out there that's willing to share leads in the same way that's very foundational to what we do.
Chad Paris
Yeah. Yeah.
Chad Paris
Yeah, that's that's good. That's good. A AI a I'm sorry, a tool app or a ritual that you could not run your business without.
Chris Gorges
boring answer. Callendly. I Yeah. I I I live and die my by my calendar and I hate nothing more in the world than sending ten emails back and forth trying to arrange schedules. So Callendly probably saves ten hours for me a week. And I live and die by my calendar. I wake up
Chad Paris
Yeah, no, it's good. I don't agree with I have to love it. It's I agree. It's so
Chad Paris
Yeah.
Chris Gorges
in the morning and I actually I have my assistant send me an email at the end of the day on a Monday and on so I know on Tuesday, all right, this is what I've got ready and I just do whatever's on my calendar.
Chad Paris
Yeah, I I'm same way. I couldn't live without it. Agreed. if you weren't doing this, what would you be doing?
Chris Gorges
well again to our earlier AI discussion, if I don't have a job within a couple years, because this stuff really gets good, I have a few side hustles that I'm kind of ideating on and spinning up. So I'm not ready to share those yet. but there's one in the apparel space that I'm exploring. because again, that combines my my thrifting of apparel and my love of cool clothes. and another
Chad Paris
Fair.
Chris Gorges
business in in in the knife space. I'll go ahead. It's I won't give up the full idea, but it's oyster knives.
Chad Paris
nice.
Chris Gorges
So pulling pulling together, you know, my eastern North Carolina roots and and there's a creative angle to that as well. So check check back with me in a couple of years. I might just be a an apparel and oyster knife guy.
Chad Paris
Yeah. That's cool. I like that.
Chad Paris
I love it. That's cool. Last one. What does process over pressure mean to you?
Chris Gorges
you know, I haven't dug into what your podcast name means, but I mean I get both. I guess process can alleviate some pressure. and you know, I've I've had a few experiences with clients over the years where, you know, things get tense. They, you know, they have deadlines, they have their own internal pressures. And being that I've been in this world of branding for startups for over 10 years now. you know, we I've developed processes that my team and I go through and everything is about iteration and collaboration. And you know, if I have a client who's like, my God, everything's everything's wrong, it's falling apart, I very much have to say regularly, trust the process. Not nothing here is unfixable. You know, we have clients who will give them a mock up and they don't love the stock photography ch choices. You know, all you gotta say is we don't like that photo. We would prefer it to be, you know, a photo of a happy family with a dog. Follow the process, give us feedback, collaborate with us, iterate with us, and and then we can kind of get back to where you wanted to be. And I I I trust our process. Again, it's very collaborative, very iterative, and Clients that work with us that feel that things are not going the right direction. I kind of had to say, hey, look at the work that we've done that is the reason why you hired us in the first place. They went through the exact same process you did and they might have felt the exact same way halfway through. but if we keep on iterating and keep on improving together, then we'll get to a great result.
Chad Paris
Love it. That's a great answer. Chris, if someone's out there and they're needing they w they want to experience someone who actually can walk them through, help them with branding, help them get get going in the right direction, how can they reach you?
Chris Gorges
you can always give me a shout at Chris at ThompsonandPrince.com. and again, we're always happy to have the conversation because even if we're not a fit, we have this great network of other agencies in many cases that do the same things we do. so naming, logo design, visual identity, brand guidelines, positioning and messaging, marketing collateral, pitch decks, merch, swag, packaging. You name it. If it has a logo or a message on it, we can design it. and then lastly, website design and development. and I'm always happy to have the conversation because again, it's built into my model and I'm also just a connector that if you come to us and we think it's a ten thousand dollar project and you only have three, that's all good. Let's talk and I'll see if I can find you somebody who can do it for three. And on the same token, if you come to us and You have a million dollar budget and I don't think that we're going to hit exactly how you want that million dollars to be allocated. We have much bigger agencies we partner with as well. And I can cut out some of that process for you and refer you to some of our partners who are really awesome and work with bigger clients.
Chad Paris
I love that. I love it. You you're always looking for a solution to help people. And I love that. I love that. Well, guys, thank you. So Chris, thank you for being on the show. Great guest. Really enjoyed your your conversation today. Thank you. again, my name is Chad Paris. This is I'm the owner founder of Stonefly Consulting. Our podcast here is Process Over Pressure. Love for you to hit the link and subscribe down at the bottom. And until next time, Process Over Pressure.
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