Andrew Ayers
How to Build a Law Firm That Actually Serves Small Business | Andrew Ayers
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"you don't want to lose that authenticity of who you really are. And that's the one competitive advantage you will always have over other people
Key Takeaways
- ◆Andrew starts every day with a call to his VAs in India who summarize his calendar and client requests before the workday begins, and he uses AI to get a high-level look at his inbox so he can prioritize time with his three kids before he opens his laptop.
- ◆He built his marketing assets one project at a time over a decade (first a mailed newsletter, then website redesign, then email, chatbot, YouTube, social media, and LinkedIn) instead of trying to compete with established firms all at once, and each system ran on autopilot before he added the next.
- ◆Andrew charges flat fees for all business and estate planning work (e.g., $2,500 for an estate plan that avoids $40,000 in probate fees) so clients get certainty up front, and he tells potential clients to choose the attorney they're most comfortable with regardless of fee.
- ◆He pivoted from family law to estate planning and business law to move from reactive crises (like bailing clients out of jail on Friday nights) to forward-looking work where he can plan instead of react.
- ◆Partnerships without operating agreements routinely end in $200,000 litigation because there's no process to handle a breakup, and Andrew has seen two-and-a-half-year trials over 50-50 splits where one partner codes and the other does marketing and both claim they deserve 75 percent.
- ◆Andrew tells clients his goal is for them to outgrow him, and if a founder calls with needs beyond his scope he refers them to someone who's a better fit instead of trying to keep the revenue.
- ◆When a founder is stuck or flatlining, Andrew recommends doubling down on one marketing channel that's working, getting out to meet people in person (coffee, bar, local conference table), and remembering that being a founder is extremely lonely so you need social connection even if it's not about business.
Full transcript
Show
Chad
Welcome back to Process Over Pressure, the show where we cut through the highlight reels and have real conversation with the real founders, operators, and professionals who've been in the trenches, the wins, the losses, and everything you could imagine that happens in between. I'm your host, Chad Paris, and today I'm joined by Andrew Ayers, founder of the Andrew Ayers PC out of Minnesota. Andrew has been practicing law for 23 years, 15 of those he was running his own firm. He started in New York City, having family law, made a deliberate pivot into state planning and business law when his family grew, and eventually landed up in Minnesota where he is now the attorney of small business owners who actually want to call. He charges flat fees, tells his clients straight up front, he wants them to outgrow him, and has written two books on the side. In other words, he is a lawyer who runs his firm like a business, and that's exactly why I wanted to have him on the show today. Andrew, welcome to the show. Glad to have you.
Andrew Ayers
Thanks Chad, that's one of the best descriptions of my law from I've heard. I'm going to copy that for the next time.
Chad
Okay. Yeah. Well, hey, we're off to a good start then. That's always fun. Make sure we do it right. So, so Andrew, again, you know, you and I met briefly and had, had a, you know, a really good conversation and, don't get to know each other. I think it's important before you, do these podcasts. A lot of people just out here trying to make content to podcasts, but really, you know, the, focus of my podcast is, process over pressure and, having that opportunity to talk to you. I know you're very. very adamant about process. And so I'd love to just start off like, what is it like in a day for you in your law firm, the processes you have in place to kind of helps you get through the day?
Andrew Ayers
Yeah, I think for me, the process starts early and it's just kind of getting all those things out of the way first thing in the morning. I've been leaning more into AI where I get a summary of my day. I get a high level look at my inbox and my calendar. And then I actually start the day with a quick call with my VAs who are based in India. And we go over my calendar. If we have calls coming up, they give me a summary of what everyone wants to talk about. It's a little different on court appearance days. Those are all done by Zoom or vacation days. But I've really found that putting all of that process up front of the day makes it a lot easier to get started than showing up at the office, opening the laptop, and all of a sudden getting assaulted by 80 things at once.
Chad
You know, I love that. And honestly, love I've had an opportunity to, to interview a couple lawyers, one law firm and another one that does marketing for large law firms. And there's a mix, there's mixed feelings out there with AI, they're all over the place, depending on who you talk to. And I love just how calm you you the way you have used it in your in your business is, is this really to keep you firing on all cylinders, not being bogged down with all the bunch of to-do stuff, but really, and I think you would, the greater this, is getting you to the things that you really enjoy doing the most.
Andrew Ayers
Right. And you know, and I want to start the day with my three kids. mean, the reason I do this is because I've got three kids in three different schools. And so my first priority in the morning is making sure that everyone's where they need to be. I was spending time with them this morning. We had a walk and bike to school event. got another son who's going to do some P.T. So we have to make sure he gets to his physical therapy. So, you know, being able to put that priority to start the day and know that when I show up for that call with my V.A.s. I'm not behind an eight ball already. know things have been taken care of in the background and we're gonna hit the ground running for the day.
Chad
And I think that's so critical in the world we live in today. And there's a ton of people out there who own businesses or starting a business or trying to move. It can consume you very fast and on in the business. And I think you've had some experience early on with that where it ends up being like that's your life. But you are very intentional and I love that. Very intentional to having that time with your family and the things that really is at the end of it when it's all said and done is the things that you value the most. I think that's... I love to hear that you've been able to use some of the AI and some of the automation to be able to give you that. And I'm a big advocate for that, giving people more time back to enjoy the things that they love.
Andrew Ayers
Yeah. And even if you're not using AI, one of the biggest benefits I have is Sunday mornings. look at the week ahead and just kind of I actually write it all out in a piece of paper. I still have a paper planner. And so I can get kind of a high look at the week ahead, kind of know what's coming up, what the big things are that I have to deal with so that Monday morning, Monday morning is not scary for me anymore. When I work for somebody else, Monday morning was scary because I get to the office and you find out what's now expected of you at 830 on a Monday morning. And I like not having to be scared of waking up on Mondays.
Chad
Yeah.
Chad
Yeah, I man, I remember those days. man, your weekend gets ruined because you're so much not looking forward to Monday. Your Sundays is usually blown. Like you can't even enjoy it. So, David, Andrew, I'm sorry. You mentioned something, you know, when we were talking originally and I wanted to ask you about this, you you, you pivoted from family law. mean, you doing family law and pivoted and in New York, fast-paced, a lot of things happening up there to now doing like estate planning and more business type law. What's big change there? What's the big difference that you see?
Andrew Ayers
I think the big difference is that I've taken some of that litigation off of my daily plate. So when you're doing family law, inevitably someone throws a plate at somebody's head on a Friday night, somebody ends up in jail and you've got to go bail them out at 11 o'clock on a Friday night in Queens, New York. And that's just for me, not a long term way I'd want to live my life. And there are people who like to live that way. I've got a friend from Long Island who does a lot of criminal work and he said that's just part of the job and he's used to it. If he has to go down and do it, he does it. But for me, it's moving from that reactive of, my gosh, something just happened to let's work on the planning piece. We're now looking at, as opposed to reacting to everything around us, let's plan ahead, whether it's estate planning, whether it's business law, and we're putting together your business and putting together your contracts. It's taking that forward view and adding more certainty to your life as opposed to waiting for life to happen to you.
Chad
Did you find that when you were transitioning, you know, maybe early on or maybe, you know, when you were first out practicing or, you know, new to it, did you find like it was hard to discover what your niche is or maybe what my niche would be or has that changed over time? mean, obviously some of it's changed, but was that a challenge?
Andrew Ayers
I mean, it was because I was working for somebody else. So I was forced to, you know, I was forced to do what he wanted to do. And, I tell young associates and young attorneys all the time that the most freeing thing you can have is when you're working for yourself, you can say no to clients. And I had a call about two weeks ago with somebody who I had spoken to last summer and he was really gung ho on moving forward. He wanted all these things. And I said, great, here's your retainer agreement. Just, you know, when you're ready, let's move forward. And he just never did. And then six months later, he comes back and says, why hasn't anything happened? And I said, because I never heard from you again. And he said, well, let's move forward now. And I said, you know what? I'm good. You know, at this point, you've kind of shown me your true colors by taking six months away and then showing up and trying to put it on me that I've done something wrong because nothing's happened when you never hired me. So I think having the ability to actually chart that course is what changed. But when I work for somebody else, what I would see is I could tell certain kind of clients and certain types of. areas that were around the side of the divorce. So I knew businesses were interesting to me. So when I had a client who owned a business, often they owned it with their spouse, those cases were a little more interesting to me. Or after that's done, what's the planning look like? So a lot of times we would have, not to stereotype, but you'd have a husband and wife, they were high school sweethearts. The husband went to school, he went to college, he went to graduate school, and the wife had always just been a stay at home mom. And these tend to be older couples. They get divorced and now the mom has the mom and the wife has the house as a checkbook with hundreds of thousands of dollars in it, but no idea how to pay the bills. Doesn't know any of the infrastructure that it takes to run the house. And, the ex-husband's off doing his thing with his new girlfriend most of the time. And that piece of, you know, how do we plan for that mother, for that wife who never anticipated that she was even going to get a divorce and was never ready and never had the tools for frankly, how to run her life and run this whole house on her own. you know, I would see those kinds of situations come over again and again and that's where I would see my real interest and so when I went on my own saying okay I want to start working with those kinds of clients.
Chad
Yeah, you know, it's a, I don't think anybody ever wakes up. Majority, not everybody, majority of people don't think about those planning ahead. it's just like you just, and so, you know, you're a big proponent of that. And I get why, because you're right. When things become stressful, whether a loved one dies or... divorce happens or whatever. Like the last thing you want to be thinking about is like how I'm going to pay the bills next week. Like that's not something do you want to think about. Very often it happens where people are stuck in a situation because they didn't plan or didn't come to somebody like yourself and they're sitting there going, now what do I do? I don't even know how to get out of bed. How more or less pay bills. Like, I mean, you see that all the time. You're, you're, you probably could tell horror stories for days on that.
Andrew Ayers
Yeah, and I think these days we've moved away from the divorce, but I see it where, mom or dad died. And I get it. My mother passed away a couple of years ago and for about a month, about four or five weeks, I could barely get out of bed. I didn't know what to do next. it was just, you know, work was the last thing on my mind. And so whether it's from a divorce or a family member dying or let's say you're in a business with a partner and they've just pushed you out. Now you have no job to go to and you find yourself saying, what just happened? I started this company. I didn't really understand the documents I signed at the time. And now some private equity had come in, they invested and they pushed me out and they're going a different direction. And that company might even be named after you. And now you're sitting there at home going, what do I do next? I've been pushed out of my company. There's restrictions on what I can do next. I can't compete with my old company. I mean, you know, it's, challenging to figure out those next steps.
Chad
Yeah, and it is. Challenging is a nice way to say it. It's pissed off sometimes when things like that happen. you know, when we had talked earlier, one of the things, you had said this, and I kind of labeled it in my notes when we were talking building and marketing one project at a time. I think it's the way you kind of said it when you were talking about that.
Andrew Ayers
Bye.
Chad
I'd love to dive into a little bit about that and what that looks like or what that looks like for you and maybe what it used to look like, what it looks like now. And could you elaborate on that? I thought it was a great term. I wrote that down, building marketing one project at a time. I love that. I just thought to share it.
Andrew Ayers
Yeah, so I think about a decade ago when we moved to Minnesota, I was trying to consider what was next for marketing and how would I reach out to the market. And you would look at lawyers in town who were just killing it and they have all these marketing assets and it's overwhelming. And you don't have to be in a legal business. know, start whatever business you're in. You look at your top competitors. And you remember that they're on level 10 and you're on level one. And this is something that Dan Martell, who wrote Buy Back Your Time, is very forward about saying, don't compare your level one to somebody else's level 10. And so back then I would, I kind of broke it down and said, all right, I would love to have all of these, but I've got to start somewhere. As opposed to trying to install it all at once, which you can do with probably a couple hundred thousand dollars and letting somebody else do all the work for you, instead pick the first thing. And so I remember years ago, it was a mailed newsletter. And then once that got up and going, the next year we redid the website. And then we added email newsletters. We added a chat bot. We added a YouTube channel. We added social media. This past year has really been a focus on LinkedIn. So it grows over time. And so now when I talk to younger attorneys and they're now looking at my site being overwhelmed, which I find amazing because when I started this, I was the one who was overwhelmed by other people's marketing assets. But it was just a matter of starting one thing at a time. And when you've got it nailed in and it becomes a system. And it is, mean, most of the things I do are on autopilot these days so that I can move on to the next thing without worrying about that first system falling apart. And that's where I think you really see the compounding growth year over year. But, you know, like hopping in your market and trying to take on the, you know, 10,000 pound gorilla who's 50 years ahead of you, you're just going to keep running under a wall. You're going to be frustrated and you're going to be miserable. So start with something small. You're nimble. You're a smaller business. You can do things they can't do. You can move faster. You can try AI. You could try different marketing tactics. So, you know, look for those little things that you can do that others can't.
Chad
Yeah, I have this conversation quite often actually with clients that I talk to and working with and that are out there. If you're a big law firm, big business, big corporation, to spend $20,000 on something just to throw it down to give it a shot, it's not really a big deal. That's not that big deal. But when you're a medium to really small size company and you're thinking about you have a certain amount of dollars, some people have 20,000 for the whole year. You think about where's my best place to start? I think you say it best. Like you cannot do it all. Like you cannot do everything. You have to think about in steps. And it's really a ladder. What can I do that's going to get me back the payment on that? Then you keep layering it and layering it. And I think that is so important for people to understand. It's like... Don't compete against the big companies because they got pockets full of money. You don't.
Andrew Ayers
Yeah, and you know, I always will tell my businesses, look at what they're doing and do something different. So if they're doing tons of social media ads, what about direct mail for you? So that's why I started with a mailed newsletter, because that's something that nobody else can compete with you on. You're getting to the people you're sending it to right into their mailbox in their house. You get that direct connection with them. It's not lost to a spam filter and their email inbox. It's not a website that they can't access. So you look at what the big folks are doing and what the hot marketing technique is and maybe go and look at something older that's still working. And I work with a business coach and we were talking about that this morning about where's the next piece of direct mail we can use because the big firms, the bigger companies, they're not using direct mail. Some are, but most are not. And that's where you can find your competitive advantage.
Chad
Yep. You know, I was just so right in my alley because I was in the conversation earlier today and the same thing was just asking like, what is the next trend in marketing going to be? You know, that's the million dollar question because everybody's wanting to be that new trend, that new thing. And this was something that we talked about and I was doing a little education class on it is that, know, SEO has been around, but there's so many, you know, artificial intelligence writing platforms now that will write the these SEOs for you to help with blog posts and things like that. And people are just spending money after money on these things. Like they're just throwing money away. And the conversation was like, look, if you're sending things to AI to write for you, and then you're hoping that you're going to get a growth in SEO, you know that this pulling the same information that everybody else is using, there's no advantage. And they're like, what? Like, no, you have it right. It's okay to have it right if we can do the layout, but then you take and put it in your own words because that's what's going to make you unique and different than everybody else.
Andrew Ayers
Yeah, and if you're in the right kind of business, you can do the one thing that nobody else can do. Go out and meet people because you get to be you. You get to meet people. You get to make the direct connections and no other business in your space can do that because they're not you. And I think a lot of people forget about that personal connection and with all the slop online, all the AI things, you know, that personal connection, that's you, that's your voice. That's that's probably your goal that a lot of people ignore.
Chad
Yeah.
Chad
Do you think people have gotten to a place where we're living in a time where everything needs to be an easy button, a fast, quick, easy button?
Andrew Ayers
Yep, are definitely in that time. And I think the challenge you have to look for is you don't want to lose that authenticity of who you really are. And that's the one competitive advantage you will always have over other people.
Chad
You know, it's just amazing to me as we sit here and technology is a... And I know we always... Listen, a lot of people always pick on the word technology and it's not just technology. It's part of it, but it's not all of it. But we as a society have really created this environment where we won't stuff fast, quick, because that's really how things... I mean, look, we can order a pizza or food and it'll be door-dashed to us in 20 minutes. This is the world we live in. And there's more more things leaning to that faster. But that's not reality. Some things need to marinate and need to take a process. And think you're right, that human element, that authenticity of who you are, what makes you tick, there's a lot of value still in that. And I hope we don't forget that.
Andrew Ayers
Yeah, and I think I've heard from various folks over the years that people don't buy from a brand, they buy from you as the person. And especially in the small business context, you can create a great little business, but they're going to want to buy from you, the person they know, like, and trust more than just some brand name or some fancy social media ad they saw.
Chad
Yeah. So kind of hopping through this a little bit, you went to a flat fee philosophy and in the lawyer world, that's not a normal, that's most people bill by hours. Most people, they think, hey, I'm going to see a lawyer. They're already thinking, okay, it's $20,000. I haven't even walked in front door yet. What? Why did you build it that way? What was your thought process? Why that?
Andrew Ayers
Well, I think I looked at the businesses that I'm working with and everything they do is on a flat fee basis. So if I have a restaurant, they're paying, you know, if they're delivered 10 heads of lettuce, they pay for the 10 heads of lettuce to the supplier. When you look at their menu, you order your dinner. It's a flat fee. know, it's $15 for this plate. It's 10 for that. So the rest of the world uses flat fees. And then the legal world has even if you go to your doctor, there's a fee. It gets sent to insurance. I there's all the rest of the world is flat fee. And it seemed like attorneys are one of the last ones using hourly. I was actually at Mass the other morning and afterwards a group of lawyers would get together for coffee and there was a couple of young associates who were talking about their billable hour requirement was 2,200 hours a year. And I'm kind of chuckling at myself because they said, you work for yourself. How does the hourly billing work for you? I said, it doesn't. I said, occasionally I have a litigation that requires hourly billing, but normally it's a flat fee. Somebody comes to me, they want a business document crafted. Here's what the cost is. You want to put together a state plan? No problem. Here's the documents are going to be in it and here's the cost for that. So the flat fee gives your clients that certainty and they're used to it. I mean, think about in life, if you buy something from Amazon, you don't get a bigger bill. If takes Amazon longer to deliver it to you, you pay whatever Amazon tells you to pay. So we live in a flat fee world. Lawyers are just very slow to catch up to the fact that nobody likes hourly. I mean, nobody likes hourly billing. The law firms don't. Somebody's got to put in the bill. They've got to send out the bill. There's some
Chad
Yeah.
Andrew Ayers
poor assistant who's got to check all the bills before they go out. mean, nobody, nobody likes hourly billing.
Chad
Don't you think that's partly because, you know, one of the last reasons why is that, you know, there's a lot of associates that are in these firms. And I mean... Let's just be honest. mean, that's how they get paid, right? The time they put into it and how they build it across. think the flat fee is why it's been held out is because some are a little afraid maybe of that time and how they get paid and all that kind it's gonna change, but it has to change.
Andrew Ayers
Well, and it's how you provide value to your client, though. So in that situation, that big firm says the value is the number of hours we spend doing the work. In my world is what is the value of that contract to the business? And that's what you're paying me. It doesn't matter how long it takes. It doesn't matter how many revisions we have to have. The value to you in the contract is the contract itself and what it's protecting. Whereas the hourly method is the real value is how many manpower hours can we send after this work? And the harder thing for the client is you have to realize those firms are incentivized to take longer to do the work. So they want to have, they want a bigger bill and they want to show you, look at this. spent 10, we had 10 people spending 40 hours a week on this for six months. And you've got this amazing thing as a result. But the reality is what was the value to the client and the value could be even way more. Maybe the value is it saved them $5 million. They got a $500,000 bill from the law firm. But the reality is the value to the client was 5 million. And in the end, that law firm may have underbilled them. because they could have flat feed it for even more and said, listen, we're saving you 5 million. You pay us 1 million. We'll just get it taken care of for you.
Chad
Yeah, I mean, I agree. I know that I prefer to operate on, know, with my clients, I usually tell them like, this is the scope of work. Like, this is what you told me you need done. Here's the scope. Look at it. Make sure it is aligned with exactly what you want. And then here's the cost to do that. It's not going to be like, well, I'm going to bill you by the hour because if they go, well, I it to be cheaper. And I'm like, all right, well, what part do you want to cut out of here? Because this is, you know, this is what it costs to do that. I mean, that's how we should operate, right? I mean, that way, you know, when I pay this amount, I'm getting everything that's on this checklist. This is what I'm getting. This is what we talked about. This is everything I'm going to get. It's a deliverable at that point, right?
Andrew Ayers
Sure. Yeah. And you know, if I'm talking to a client and say your estate plan is $2,500 and they say, well, why is it $2,500? Well, the probate fees are going to be 40,000. So you don't have to do the estate plan, but you're getting quite a return on your investment. If you pay me 2,500 and avoid that $40,000 of probate fees, you've come out way ahead and it's not really your fees. That's going to be your family. So can your kids really afford to go through all that? Or can we just get this done now and see the value in getting your estate plan documents put together?
Chad
Yeah, so it's all about how you put it in perspective and when you think about it. But a lot of people don't know, you know, they don't, when they talk about lawyer, they don't know and they don't want to ask the questions or look at it. It's just like, you know, cause they do. There's this thing that every time you say, I'm going to call a lawyer, like, my God, it's going to cost me a lot of money. But not everybody's that way. It's more like people like yourself. It's like, okay, tell me the problem. Here are options. This is what I would do. This is what you, you know, obviously just like you just laid out. Okay. It could cost you $40,000 or $2,500 too. think anybody in the right mind would go, I'll pay the $2,500 right now. It's not going to cost me down the road. That's no brainer, right?
Andrew Ayers
Yeah. Yeah. And Hollywood hasn't done us any favors. People love suits. They love Harvey Specter. And I tell people all the time, if that's what you want, I'm not your guy. And I don't feel bad about it. If you want to find a guy who's in downtown Manhattan in a three piece suit every day, looking fancy and billing you at twelve hundred bucks an hour, go with it. I have no problem with that. We're just not a good fit. And that was one of the lessons I learned really when I went on my own is that I don't have to pretend to be somebody else. So when I'm working for somebody else.
Chad
Yeah.
Andrew Ayers
I have to be a particular type of family attorney. wants this kind of firm facing out towards the world. So we're forced to do what he wanted us to do. Whereas now, I can be me and there's some clients who that's not going to work for them and that's fine. Again, if you want Harvey Specter, go hire him. But chances are, if what you're really looking for is the more straightforward approach and not overpaying by the hour, I might be your guy.
Chad
Yeah.
Chad
Yeah, I love it. mean, I just, it's just totally, it's, and that's what I love about this podcast is it kind of talks about some of the things that people are afraid of and scared about. And then it gives them a chance to know like, no, you just need to know the right questions maybe to ask or find the right person. Cause they're not all the same, like to classify all lawyers and all consultants in the same category, not fair. Cause it's not true at all. It really depends.
Andrew Ayers
Yeah, and I have that call all the time. Somebody calls my office, we chat, and then they tell me, you know what, I'm interviewing a couple other attorneys. And I say, great, no problem. I want you to make sure you go with the attorney you're most comfortable with. I don't want you to say this one's more expensive or less expensive. So always take the fee out of the equation and make sure you're working with who you're comfortable with, because no matter what, that's going to be the biggest indicator of you having success with them or not. If you are, let's say in your 80s and you don't like technology, I may not be the right person for you because there's a lot of tech built into my process. You may want somebody you can meet with in person who's going to mail you documents and mail you surveys. If you're in your early thirties and you're very tech heavy, you've got a bunch of crypto. My approach probably makes more sense for you than the guy down the street who is still running Windows 95.
Chad
That's good. That's so true. So let's just say I have another question here. It kind of relates to what I'd like to do is talk about a scenario really truly like what it is. Because as a small business owner myself, you see a lot of small businesses and you have a partnership. Let's say that there's two of you going in there. I just want to talk a little bit about, and I think this is so much value for those that are listening, a partnership with someone or an entity or a group without an operation agreement. I think that is one of the areas that gets overlooked a lot. my opinion, you may have a different opinion. And I'd love to just kind of walk through the importance of that for people that are listening to say, I never looked at it that way, I didn't realize that. Because I think it's a part that gets missed a lot. Would you agree?
Andrew Ayers
Absolutely. We go on for hours, Chad. How long do you want to go? We could go four or five hours on this one. This is what we deal with all the time.
Chad
It is. And I know we don't have more of our hours, I think we would do an injustice to this show. without this one piece talking about because it is a very missed and it has really ruined a lot of people especially small business entrepreneurs that go out that are really good at something but they forget some of these things and that's why you want a person like you that's why i'm saying this this is this is where you come into value to say hey it cost me 25 million dollars but i'm setting it up right the first time this is why i'm having this conversation i just think it's very important for entrepreneurs people to listen to this so we can get a quick quick version but
Andrew Ayers
Right. yeah, I mean, and you know, before I said 2,500 for a will versus 40,000 for a probate, I mean, when we're talking business, we're looking at 2,500 for an operating agreement versus $200,000 for litigation. Because when you don't have these agreements, it's so, it's going to ruin your friendship. So the common scenario I see is we're friends, we want to do this business together. We're both interested in the same thing. One of them is great at marketing. The other one is great behind the scenes. Let's say it's a tech company. One knows how to code, the other knows how to sell the product. Friends, they're 50-50 owners. At some point, we want to diverge and somebody wants to do something different or there's a fight. And without that operating agreement, there's no way to divide everything up. And then from there, we're stuck with, we have to go through a lawsuit? Do we do mediation? Do we do arbitration? We can have a million different iterations, whereas that operating agreement will have a provision on how that breakup can happen. And you have to remember in the meantime, your business is probably still there, still making money. And now you're fighting over who gets what. Because let's say the coder has done all the work and says, you know what, I should be getting 75 % of the revenue because I do all the work. You're just doing marketing. And frankly, you didn't bring in a lot of clients this quarter. And the marketing person saying, yeah, but this is 50-50. It's always been a split. you know, you're not, the code's not that important. I should get 75 % because if I don't bring in clients, then there's nothing to this business. And then you end up two years later going to trial and you're calling 18 or 19 witnesses. It gets ugly. Everybody's fighting. I'm jokingly with one of the other groups I've been talking about, I'm actually putting together a book about this because I had a client go through two and a half years of litigation all the way to trial. And we're waiting for the trial decision at this point because that's exactly what happens when you don't have an agreement in place.
Chad
It is a place that if I could tell you the amount of conversations that I've had over this, and I'm a consultant, and I thoroughly go through people and talk about it, and I know there's this feeling as I hear this, these are things that I hear, that well, you know, we're buddies and we trust each other and... And we've grown up with each other, we're really close, and I always tell them the same thing. And I hope it always stays that way. But the reality is, is that now when you become one partner in something, there could be times where it doesn't see eye to eye. And if you don't have this, this is where you could take that 30 year friendship and destroy it in a matter of two minutes.
Andrew Ayers
Well, and I'll give you a curveball from my family law days. Let's go even further and say one of you gets divorced. You don't realize the power that divorce judge has. And now your partnership includes your partner's ex-wife who has half of their share and no agreement in place. And do you want to try to run a business with your partner's ex-wife who thinks she should now have a share in all this?
It
But it happens, right? I mean, it happens every single day and it's very much overlooked in small business. so, you my hope is that people's out here listening to this is like, wow, I didn't really think about that because it is often not thought about. I mean, we all, you know, as an entrepreneur, you're excited about starting a business. You're like, I'm going to go do the things because it's typically you're going to go jump into the thing you're really good at. Selling is what you do really well. You want to be in front of the client, selling, selling, There's so many layers that has to be done before you get to that, that you have to make sure your I's are dotted and T's are crossed or you can run into situations just like this. So you deal with it every day. You go back and wish I could, should have, wham, what we could do if we walked back five years from now, right? It happens.
Andrew Ayers
Yeah. And that's where we have that conversation and the flat fees come in handy because I will often meet with clients who it's a two person business. They don't have the money for the lawyer right now. And I said, great, we'll get things rolling, but make sure that's on the radar. Now, you know what it costs. You can start budgeting for that, save up some money so that you can come back to me in three to six months and then we can get things put into place. And you're going back to that idea of doing one thing at a time. Legal has to be a piece of that at some point. When you're first starting up, you can use a website, you can often form your company online, you can do the basics, but that operating agreement needs to be done at some point. And maybe I'm not the next dollar you're spending, but I should be at some point, maybe in the next $10 you're spending, working the legal piece to make sure that's done.
Chad
Yeah, so 100 % advocate for that. think that it is money well spent. It's as much as important as forming your LLC or you're getting your EIN number or whatever. think it's something that you really need to have that in place in order to... to get on the right footing because you never know. mean, again, there's so many horror stories we can talk about and I'm not trying to be the gloom and doom, but I just, want people who are entrepreneurs or who are really focused on wanting to do this, to listen to these things and not fall into the same mistake that so many have before them. And then they're sitting there going, man, I wish I would have, you know, I would have known that. you know, ask questions if you don't know it's, I'm sure you don't charge for people to pick up the phone and say, Hey, can I ask you a question if I should do? this. Yeah, we probably need to talk about that. Like I think you're that kind of person that would definitely help people and obviously there's a fee for doing it but like ask the question first is this something I should do?
Andrew Ayers
And don't be embarrassed. if I could tell you, I can't disclose clients, but I've had some really high profile clients who just set up their business online and never had an operating agreement. They came to me later and we got it set up. But you would be amazed. It's brands you would know. If we talked about their website, you'd say, I know all about that company. And they were operating without an operating agreement for years. And then eventually somebody got on the radar and said, you know what? You should probably get this put into place. So don't be embarrassed. You can reach out to the attorneys. We can talk to you. We can give you a game plan for going forward about what has to happen. I wouldn't just jump into chat GPT these days and spit out an operating agreement. I've been seeing more of those recently and they're pretty bare bones and they're missing a lot of what you probably need, but it's becoming more common than people think. It's gone from like, let's use legal zoom to let's use AI to create this, but it still helps to have that professional involved to make sure you get in the right document for you and your business.
Chad
Yeah.
Chad
Yeah, we don't even search through Google anymore. We search through Claude and Gemini and all those now. It's just what we do. just say, hey, where's the closest place for me to get a cheeseburger? And he asks Claude that and tells you it's changed and it will keep changing. So Andrew, one of the last things I wanted to talk about with you and it's amazing our time is flying by.
Andrew Ayers
Mm-hmm.
Chad
that I'd love to ask you and I think that you could give a lot of insight to it. What would be an advice for that you would give a founder who is stuck? Maybe they're listening to this, they're 12, they're 18 months down and they're just kind of stuck, they're flatlining, they really don't know. What would you give them? What kind of advice would you give them?
Andrew Ayers
I mean, on the legal side, we would just check and make sure that you've dotted all your I's and crossed your T's. On the marketing side of things, take a step back, figure out what's working, what's not. I would, again, go back to that idea of just the one thing. So if we're stuck and we're flatlining, is there one that works better than the rest and maybe double down on that? Again, I'm a big fan of old school marketing, direct mail, in-person networking referrals, in-person events. you know, having a table at a local conference, if that's what it is, but get out of your head and go out and meet people. If you're definitely, if you're flatlining and you're feel like you're stuck and you're not moving forward for me, I set up some coffees with people and just, you know, we don't talk business. We just talk about life. But, you know, connect with other people because being a founder, it can be extremely lonely. And that's one of the messages I've heard from my clients over the years is, especially if it's a one person business and you've been on your own for a while and you're working off your kitchen table, COVID was terrible for this for people who lived alone on top of it. You need to get out. We are social beings. We're social creatures. We need that connection. So find somebody and just get out there and chat with
Chad
That's so true. I do, I think COVID hurt, it put a lot of mindset for a lot of people and we spent that time isolating. And once you start isolating, it's hard to get out of it. you're right, go meet people, find a coffee group, find a book club group, find somebody that you can just go grab a 20 minute coffee with and just talk about it. it doesn't have to be business, it's okay, just talk about. man, did you see the baseball game last night? Whatever it is, just have conversation with people. Oftentimes I find some of my best thoughts by talking to friends or peers and saying, hey, I'm dealing with this, what do you think? And I hear stuff and I'm like, man, that's good. I may have heard it before, but sometimes it just hits differently when you have that opportunity.
Andrew Ayers
And I don't even drink alcohol, but I will go to a bar and just sit at the bar and chat with the bartender. Those folks will always talk to you. Just go there, get some dinner, grab a club soda with a lime, grab a burger and just chat with them. Because if you go on a Monday night, it's often really quiet unless there's like a playoff game on. So go to the bar, chat with the bartender. They'll be happy to chat with you.
Chad
They probably tell you all the good stuff that you need to know anyway. They see it all. They know everybody. Everybody's problem. That's hell. There's two counselors in the world. It's a counselor you pay for and it's one of those bartender. The best ones. Well, Andrew, it has been a truly a pleasure. If people are out there and they're looking for someone to operational agreement, business, estate planning, those kinds of things, how can they reach you? How can they get in touch with you to...
Andrew Ayers
Absolutely.
Chad
have a conversation and possibly get you to help them on some of this.
Andrew Ayers
Sure, so on most social media platforms, it's going to be Ayerslaw, A-Y-E-R-S-L-A-W. My website is andrewmayers.com I've got a YouTube channel. It's over at YouTube slash Ayerslaw. Or you can go to AyerslawTV.com and that'll get you over there as well. So if you look for Ayerslaw, you can usually find me pretty easily.
Chad
Fantastic and I encourage you again if you're out there and you're a new business or you have some estate planning that needs to happen. Andrew is good, he knows his stuff and what I love is he's going to give you an honest answer and tell you right where you are. He's not going to make you spend more money than you need. He's just going to be honest and tell you exactly what he would recommend and again it's up to you to make that decision. But great guy and really, really will take care of it.
Andrew Ayers
Yeah, and we didn't even talk about the fact that, my goal with all this is I want you to outgrow me. So sometimes people will call me and say, you know what, you've got more needs than I've got. Let me refer you on to somebody I know who's perfect for what you're trying to do.
Chad
Yeah, no, great point. I love that. He's a lawyer that looking for people to outgrow him and get bigger. So you won't find many like that, I'll tell you right now. Most of them want to stick with that person because they know they're going to pay a lot more money down the road. He's like, no, you're too big for me. You need to ship up to a different caliber. I love that. So that's good. Well, Andrew, thank you for being on the show today. As always, it's a pleasure to talk to people that are out there doing it every day. And again, this is process over pressure and for a reason. And I think it comes down to these conversations that we have to help people know the processes and stuff that they got to put in place to have a very well established business. So thank you. All right. And then we'll cut it there. That'll be the end of it. And we'll come out. Matt, thank you.
Andrew Ayers
Yep. Yep. Thanks, Chad. I had a great chat with you today.
Chad
How'd you, it went good, I thought it was smooth. Okay, all right. Well, I'll get you the raw footage and also when I clip it up, I'll always attach you. If you have a YouTube channel or whatever, like you said, if you can give it, I'll collaborate so you get a link to it, so it'll be on there.
Andrew Ayers
I think it was fine.
Andrew Ayers
Yeah, it'll just be under Ayres Law TV and that'll take you to it.
Chad
Okay, make sure I'll wipe that down.
Andrew Ayers
Actually, sorry, Ayres Law. Yeah, because Ayreslawtv.com or Ayres Law on YouTube.
Chad
There's law, okay. We'll do that. But no, it was great. And again, if you're running into anything that I could ever help you with, or even some of the people that come in there and they're like, man, we're overwhelmed. We need some things to help us. One of the reasons I do this is I love it, but I also want to meet people like you and stay in touch with them. And maybe you need some. help or you may not need immediate help but you talk to people all the time. like, hey, I got a guy you should talk to. think you and I are lot alike and like, I don't like, I just want to know what your problems are and I'm going give you my solution. You don't have to take it. But it's, want to tell you the truth of where I see and give you some recommendations. I think that's what my job is supposed to be. I'm not trying to just steal people's money.
Andrew Ayers
Yeah, no, I get the same. said those guys I was talking to with the bill of power requirements, my eyes are rolling back in my head. I'm like, I can't imagine living that life anymore.
Chad
Big mess for women.
Andrew Ayers
Because they were talking about like they got to go to a mediation so they can run up their billable hours. They said they take more time, they drive slowly. I'm like, that sounds like a miserable way to live your life.
Chad
It sounds like you're living to be a con artist your whole life. Yeah. Well, great. Well, thank you. Again, like I said, let's stay in touch and I'll get this stuff over to you.
Andrew Ayers
Yep.
Andrew Ayers
Sure. Cool. Are we all uploaded? know with this sometimes we have to wait till everything uploads.
Chad
Yeah, it will be uploaded in it's got about 20 more 20 more percent. It'd be about 20 percent left to upload. And then you'll get it'll come to you. It'll ding you. So you'll get it. No, no, no, we're good. All right. Thank you. Bye bye.
Andrew Ayers
Sure. Okay. But you don't need me to stay on. It's got enough for my end. All right. Perfect. Cool. Yep. Have a good one.
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