Katherine Tuominen
Catalyst Brand Strategy
Ethical Marketing Is Not An Oxymoron: Building A Global Agency On Integrity | Katherine Tuominen
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"there's this almost like craving for something more. And it never goes away. It doesn't matter how many hours you clock, or even if you get a promotion or if you feel like you're leveling up, that inner kind of burning continues to stay there until you listen to that inner voice and and take a chance and do the bigger thing that you know you're called to do
Key Takeaways
- ◆Katherine left a comfortable six-figure retail position not for money but because selling something she didn't truly believe in was eating away at her fulfillment, and she recognized her retail skills (making first impressions in seconds, converting 80K to 100K sales) could transfer directly into a service business supporting impact-driven founders.
- ◆At Warner Bros., Katherine learned that putting a celebrity or brand ambassador on a product fails if they don't authentically align with the core messaging because audiences feel the disconnect in performance, so she now matches boutique brands with thought leaders in their niche who have built-in trust and devoted communities rather than chasing the biggest names.
- ◆Katherine calls out marketing for the sake of tapping into a consumer without follow-through (like banks adding rainbows to ATMs during LGBTQ+ awareness month then disappearing after four weeks) as a core integrity problem, true ethical marketing requires supporting communities beyond one-time marketing events.
- ◆Greenwashing examples like supermarket brands repackaging products with artisanal branding while paying farmers nothing show how easy it is to compromise values incrementally, so Katherine advises checking back to your core point and asking 'if we compromise here, what are the secondary consequences?' before drifting too far from original values.
- ◆Brands that secure high-quality PR placements and listicle features early will compound advantages in AI search rankings because their data points train into large learning models first, leaving later adopters with fewer reference points to work with.
- ◆Katherine cut back her service offerings to what truly solves the founder's immediate need at their stage rather than offering a full-stack solution, because she discovered word-of-mouth marketing at scale (through public relations) was the one thing that supported everyone.
- ◆Rather than take money from clients they can't properly serve, Katherine's team declines the work and directs them elsewhere, treating the initial consultation as a relationship-building moment with no cost to the founder, then revisiting the relationship in six months to a year when circumstances change.
Full transcript
Show
Chad Paris
Hey, welcome back to Process Over Pressure. I'm Chad Paris, founder of Stonefly Consulting Group, and this show exists for one reason to give a voice to the people building something real. Not the highlight real, the full human journey. My guest today is someone who has spent years helping founders build brands that actually stand for something. She's worked across luxury retail, film, Fox Warner Brothers, and now leads her own award winning global PR agency. Catalyst Brand Strategy, supporting more than 116 brands across health, technology, and regulated industries. Her keynote is called Ethical Marketing is not an oxymoron. And I have a feeling that the title alone tells you everything you need to know about who she is. Integrity and performance, not at odds. That's her bet. Let's find out how she made it. Katherine welcome to Process Overpressure.
Katherine Tuominen
Thank you so much for having me, Chad. I'm looking forward to our discussion.
Chad Paris
Me too. This is going to be a lot of fun and and I really I really appreciate you you know getting on and and getting a chance to to to to do this with you. So I'm really I'm really looking forward to that. So you know when we were pre-talking a little bit about the the show and what we wanted to talk about, one of the things that that I wanted to start with and I think I think is is is kind of interesting when you when you look at it is you know, here's somebody you you worked with. Fox Warner Brothers, high profile, you know, wow. You've you've done luxury retail. you know, you've been very, very successful. What was the moment like when you stopped and said, you know what? I'm not building anyone else's brand. I'm going out and I'm building mine. What was that like for you?
Katherine Tuominen
Mm-hmm.
Katherine Tuominen
I actually distinctly remember the day I was working at a luxury watch store, and you know, we would get people who would who would come in having celebrated just buying an island. You know, that was the level, the caliber of clients we would receive. And I remember thinking to myself, you know, just one of these watches is my entire annual salary, and then some, you know, it it's a it's above and beyond. and so it really got me thinking, you know, if I were to do this, if I were to just sell on my own without having the kind of headcount or existing brand, if I'm already doing sales at like 80K, 100K, high-ticket sales as they call it. Then and I was profiting a much higher portion of that percentage, what would that actually look like? And it just got me thinking, it got the wheels kind of turning in in terms of the possibilities and what this meant, because we recognize as kind of sales associates or staff that every single client that walks through that door or potential client could be someone that converts. And so you have a matter of seconds to make that first impression, connect with them in a meaningful way, and then essentially understand what they may need and want, and then obviously go through that kind of conversion process. And so I realized a lot of the skills I had learned on the ground floor in those retail opportunities were skills that I could transfer into something of my own making and promote something that I actually truly believed in and valued that was beyond sort of like a material goods that I was selling. So it really encouraged me to explore the service world and what that would mean in terms of supporting impact-driven founders and to apply some of those sales skills in a more meaningful way.
Chad Paris
Yeah, that's that's that's really really cool. And and and and I agree with you. I mean, so many people I think I I I can relate to exactly how you feel. I mean, I I was at one point making you know, I looked at myself and I was like, I'm making I'm making a lot these companies a lot a lot of money. And you know, I'm I'm and and and I don't think money is everything. Like I don't believe we do everything we do for money, and I don't want people to think that this is about money.
Katherine Tuominen
Yeah.
Chad Paris
But there's a sense of freedom, right? When you own it and it's yours and and you get to put your mark on it. Like, you know, there's a lot of people who sit at a desk every day and go, Well, if I run if I owned it, I would do it this way and this way and this way. You know, you sit you sat around the water cooler and had those people say that, right? But there's only a few like yourself, like me, and like a lot of our listeners that say, Okay, I'm gonna put my money where my mouth is. I'm gonna go out and do it. and you did that.
Katherine Tuominen
Yes.
Katherine Tuominen
Right.
Chad Paris
And and and shows that not only were you successful, you know, with these other companies and successful for them, that I'm sure they were like, Well, no, Katherine please don't go. We want you to keep making money for us. but you did it and you you've created something successful. So kudos to you for doing that, right? I mean, that's not easy.
Katherine Tuominen
I appreciate that, absolutely. And I think a big part of that decision making came from the fact that I recognized somewhere along the line that selling something that I didn't truly believe in was eating away at something I couldn't quite describe or put my finger on. Like you said, it wasn't about the transactions, it wasn't about, you know, these kind of day-to-day behaviors. It was really more about the fact that I felt like I wasn't truly living to my full potential or connecting with people in a way that I wanted to and and making that greater impact. And so I had to kind of weigh up the kind of cost exchange of if I stay here in this comfortable position and yeah it is comfy. It's it's you know you get in the habit of making these commissions and you have your regular clients and you know you get into the swing of it. Or do I take the leap and really kind of go all in in something that I believe in, knowing that there's a risk, but knowing that the the payoff and the reward for that in terms of the intrinsic value would be i indescribably better.
Chad Paris
Yeah, I think that's I think that's so true. And I think there's a I think for for a successful entrepreneur, people who are really out to do it and really grow and and and want to be successful, there's a deeper purpose within them. There's a purpose behind what we do and how we do that. And I think when when when that's not being met and our in our normal nine to five job, or we're not we're not fulfilling that purpose that we feel like we we're are meant to be. I think that's more of a pull on us than the than the money thing. I think the not not being able to fulfill that purpose inside us that that's driving us is that little part. So we say it, you know, you can do this and do it better and and be very successful. But we just we just sometimes fearful to to take that lead. So, you know, that purpose, you know, maybe you talk a little bit about that because I think what you said is so true. Like that is what really motivates and drives us.
Katherine Tuominen
Absolutely. I was listening to something the other day that sort of described it as this sort of like internal fire or this burning. It's like, yes, you can go to your job job, you can do the everyday thing, but at in the back of your mind, in your heart, there's this, there's this almost like craving for something more. And it never goes away. It doesn't matter how many hours you clock, or even if you get a promotion or if you feel like you're leveling up, that inner kind of burning continues to stay there until you listen to that inner voice and and take a chance and do the bigger thing that you know you're called to do. And I think you know maybe not everyone has this to the to the same degree and that's a big reason why entrepreneurs are as as crazy as perhaps we are because yeah it's it's like we we feel like we don't have a choice almost it's like we none of us want to kind of wake up and at our deathbed and go why didn't I take that chance or like why didn't I just aim for the aim for what could be possible and and try my best so yeah I do think if any anyone relates to this feeling of this like inner burning and it can be from a creative sense to like an artist or an actor or things like that. There's some different expressions of this, but I just think that quieting that inner voice and trying to kind of suppress it, it it honestly just doesn't go away. And the sooner you sort of listen to it and and take a chance, the more your life will sort of reward you for it.
Chad Paris
Mm-hmm.
Chad Paris
Yeah, there's almost like this I I describe it as this moment where you feel this peace within and this happiness that you may have never experienced before. I find myself today making less money than I've ever made in my entire life, but the happiest I've ever been. and and and my and my agency's new too. I just started, you know, really new, and so I I don't have a big client base yet.
Katherine Tuominen
Mm-hmm.
Katherine Tuominen
Yes.
Chad Paris
But I I'm happy and I enjoy what I'm doing. And I actually the people that I am working with, I see a big change and a big purpose being fulfilled in them. And so when you get a chance to help people and you help their company, and some of these are companies that, you know, maybe have struggled for a really long time or maybe, maybe are just haven't, you know, had someone to sit down and listen to them and say what's what things can I do to make my business because they're afraid, right? A lot of people are very afraid. And then when they do do that and you get an opportunity to be entrusted by them, there's no better feeling than to know that they trust you to come in to give them your point of view or to help them. And when you get to do that, like that's a and see the success, that is really fulfilling.
Katherine Tuominen
No, no, no.
Katherine Tuominen
Yes, absolutely. And I think it sh shows in the work and the people you connect with as well. You're no longer having to do it because you're half you have to clock in or you're committed in some way. It's very much a choice. And I think that changes the relationship in terms of clients, in terms of, you know, the products that you put out, because it is all very intentional and it's coming from this place of I want to help. And you know, the impacts that come from that, the ripple effects are truly profound.
Chad Paris
Yeah.
Chad Paris
Yeah. Yeah, that is so true. That's a great way to think about that. You get to choose. You don't get it chosen for you. You get to choose who you want to work with. And they get to choose you. It's not it's a two way street, right? I mean, they're they're they're engaged. We're people can engage with us for their for our services. And you know, our we're only as good as is how we deliver, right? I mean, we we're we're in a service industry. we we deliver services, goods, whatever that may be for them.
Katherine Tuominen
Yes.
Chad Paris
And so we're we're judged on how well our services help them. so it's it's it's it's a it could be fun. It can be it can be scary and fun, I should say.
Katherine Tuominen
Yes, absolutely. And I think you touched on something so important earlier around happiness and how more and more people are kind of almost like waking up to the fact that our lives are short and if you're not truly fulfilled, if you're not enjoying your day today, then something has to change because otherwise what's the point? And even though happiness isn't quantifiable in the same way that a monetary exchange is, I think obviously the the value in terms of inner fulfillment is absolutely priceless and it's it it's so worth taking that leap. for the potential of what it could potentially bring.
Chad Paris
Yeah, I I agree. I I think it's it's just it's something that's I think if more people stopped and and thought about that and thought about, you know, what is it that's really fulfilling me and has started really thinking about that, man, I think they would feel much better about just everything. Like they're they're they're have some, you know, anxiety would probably go down for a lot of people and and we would probably find ourselves really in enjoying like
Katherine Tuominen
Yes.
Chad Paris
life and and that I think that's the thing that you know I it's kind of a side note but I I see people as often that that are like especially when I talk to business owners people that man it's just they seem so stressed and they seem so like almost like you get the sense that they hate what they do. And I'm like, man, how do you how you know my my thought comes to mind is like how could you have this and something that you've worked all your life to build, to build to a great company.
Katherine Tuominen
Mm.
Chad Paris
And hate it. It's it's wearing on you so much that you hate it. And and I think there's a lot of business owners that are that way that instead of stopping and saying, you know what, I'm gonna I'm gonna call Katherine and bring her in to help me live work through this and and pull and rely on people to to bounce things off of. I find myself being more of a soundboard for people than anything. Like they just talk through things and and
Katherine Tuominen
Yeah.
Chad Paris
And then they kind of we kind of work through some of the problems that they just they got up here, but they just can't get it out. I don't know if you experience that, but once you do, our our creative mind, the way we're built, can start taking those and and and pinning them on the wall and creating into this pattern that's man, could do some magic inside a company.
Katherine Tuominen
Mm. Absolutely.
Katherine Tuominen
Mm-hmm. It's so true. And I think bouncing ideas off between different people who understand your vision ultimately means you're able to brainstorm and come up with ideas you maybe never would have if you were trying to just, you know, plug it into an AI bot or figure it out on your own. And I think it really speaks that level of collaboration that makes work so meaningful and also brings joy. Because obviously, as humans, we do crave that sense of connection and collaboration. And maybe for you know the business owners who have are at a point where they're not enjoying it as much as they used to, it's obviously there's so many variables that may contribute to that, but I do think that collaborations and the partnerships that they've made are a key point to that as well. So going back to what you were saying earlier around choosing our who we work with, it really goes hand in hand with the overall meaning and making sure that it is adding to the the both the value that we see externally and also what we feel internally.
Chad Paris
Yeah. So so one thing I I do want to I want to mention I kind of kind of before we move on to the to the next kind of area. you you worked at Warner Pros, and what a what a huge monster, right? I mean, big monster, right? As far as come to branding and publicity and and and marketing and all the things, like they they got a monster of a team that they do that with, right?
Katherine Tuominen
Yeah.
Katherine Tuominen
Right.
Chad Paris
so so being in that and seeing that and and you know, the good, the bad, the ugly, you know, having opportunity to work on probably some awesome films, awesome releases that they were doing to kind of now have in your boutique or your your your niche or what you do. what would you say maybe one or two of the lessons that you learned from that that to that you said, you know, I'm walking away from this experience to to now kind of mine and maybe Maybe you took along with you or learned along the way.
Katherine Tuominen
so many. Well, one of the ones that always stays with me is the fact that you can put a big name on a brand, a package, a product, or, you know, a film, whatever it may be. But if that celebrity or brand ambassador doesn't actually truly align with the core messaging, the audience is gonna feel it. There's gonna be a disconnect. The performance won't Do as well as as is initially anticipated. And that really comes back to the authenticity piece and making sure that whoever you do vet for that role truly does care about the story. They care about the mission and they are. able to embody it, not just within the confines of their contract, but also outside of that and continue to be a representation of the values that you hold. And so to apply it more on a boutique level, you know, the brands that we work with, many of them do want to secure long-term brand ambassadors. And they're not always, you know, the biggest influencers or the biggest celebrities, although sometimes they can be. Often they are more like thought leaders in the space who have their own niche community or or smaller following, but they're very, very dedicated and loyal. And instead it's about facilitating those partnerships in a way that truly does create a win-win relationship and encourage that long-term, I guess, value exchange between the two different brands. And so that's one of the biggest lessons I learned. And I think it can be applied to any level of business. It's what we kind of call word of mouth.
Chad Paris
Yeah.
Katherine Tuominen
marketing at scale and it's where someone else vouches for your brand for you and because they have that built-in trust your your brand and messaging is is more more likely to go further and get into the right hands. So that's a big tip that I would definitely recommend.
Chad Paris
I love that. That and that is I will tell you that that's something you don't hear every day. Like I love I think I think that's a great lesson because you're right. You don't have an alignment with the people that you have helping you or or marketing for you or or there's not a and I think this kind of goes to, you know, the integrity part. Like this whole whole thought about that. And I love, you know, your keynote, and I want to talk about this. I think this is something to unpack is You know, w ethical marketing is not an oxymoron. Like like tell us what you mean by that. Tell us a little more about that because I think it aligns exactly with what you're saying.
Katherine Tuominen
Yes, so you know, there's this kind of funny saying in film that there's there's almost like an artistic hierarchy where like film is the cream of the crop. That's like when you think about fine art, when you think about high quality, like especially more of like the art house films, like that is the the the cream. And then at the very, very bottom is like advertising, like you know, the stuff you see when you're trying to scroll past on Instagram. And so there's marketing has this kind of perception of being almost like the dark psychology of the different forms of emotional storytelling, because you're using emotional storytelling to basically nudge someone through that journey, whether it be the customer journey or patient journey or likewise. And so, in order to be really conscious of the journey that you're guiding your customers through, it's very important to also be mindful of the the other side where they could be misled or misguided if they weren't given the right information. And so Because we work in such heavy compliant industries across health and wellness, we are very mindful of the importance of ensuring that any message that goes out truly does have evidence. Backed messaging, and it is really grounded in tangible things that do support someone's well being. And it's not necessarily false or or misguiding because at the end of the day, there is so much overwhelm, especially in this space, and people don't necessarily know how to look after their well being, where to begin. And so we want to make sure that all messaging is very much true to the integrity of both the brand and also honest with the consumers who might be trying this product for the first time or seeking patient care for the first time. So that's really how we kind of approach it from a broad brushstroke perspective. But I do think that there are so many layers to ethical marketing and a big piece of it does come down to knowing your values and the lines that you refuse to cross, no matter how much money it will make or no matter who is telling you that that's the right direction to go in.
Chad Paris
Yeah, and and I I kinda I wanna I wanna I kinda circle this because this is something that that I've that I've experienced and and w why where I said where does the industry keep getting it wrong when it comes to integrity versus performance? It seems like that is a like constant battle with the end. And and I I mean I I think I think there's a lot of in the industries getting that wrong and and and Maybe I think you're probably the right person to kinda talk about that a little bit 'cause I keep seeing it and I keep hearing it and and I think it's a big problem.
Katherine Tuominen
Yes. That's fair. So to give some more kind of commonplace examples, in PR or the media world, there's something called the editorial calendar. We know we know things like Valentine's Day, Mother's Day, these big kind of calendar events, but there's also sub-events per per industry. And what can sometimes happen is these bigger brands can just jump on to an event or to a theme and then brand their
Chad Paris
Yeah.
Katherine Tuominen
thing for that theme. So right now it's LGTBQ plus awareness month. And so you'll see that a lot of banks start having like rainbows on their, you know, ATMs and and doing all these kind of campaigns, but it lasts for the four weeks and then it disappears. And do they truly advocate or create different touch points or support mechanisms for those who might be feeling, you know, isolated from or not having the support that they require? Probably not. And so there's this almost tendency to cr market for the sake of tapping into that consumer, but then not actually supporting them beyond that one-time marketing event. And so, you know, I'm sure you can think of plenty of other examples how this could apply to different industries or verticals, but this is just one that I'm sure is going to be coming up this month because we see it every year, time and time again. another case would be greenwashing, so more in sustainable spaces, a lot of I don't know if you're aware of this, but in the supermarket, there's a lot of brands owned by the kind of supermarket brand, but then they just rebrand it and then give it kind of this artisanal look. And so there'll be like farmers X, but then actually, if you look at it, the farmers are getting paid absolutely nothing. you know, the the branding is just mass-marketed using very like cheap. products and and not even good quality and then they've packaged it in a way that it seems kind of farmer friendly and so and it's not sustainable either. So yes, there's there's many examples of this. And I think it really comes down to the the owners of that brand and and how they want that integrity to be translated across and making sure that their decisions every step of the way are very much in line with their core values and they're not slowly steering off because it only takes like a couple of we can compromise a bit here, we can compromise a bit there. And then before
Chad Paris
Yeah.
Katherine Tuominen
you know it, you're you're so far off from the original values that you you wanted to start off. And maybe that's what you were describing earlier with the b business owners or founders who are not enjoying their work anymore because perhaps it has steered too far away from what they first envisioned.
Chad Paris
Yeah, I mean I I think, you know, the word integrity is is is a big thing and it's it's it's it's very disappointing that it feels like integrity has gone out the window in a lot of a lot of the companies today and and and I don't mean that mean. I mean I just think that, you know, we we're right. We we wanna we wanna pull on heart strings because we we know the consumer may not be fully aware. And we play to that in a way of, you know, just like the the model you talk about with the farmers and saying it's farmer friendly, but yet the farmers are getting nothing out of that. And they're they're the ones that's doing all the hard work. And and and and they're they're I mean they are they're being kind of compromised or used a little bit in a way because it's not truthful. And and and I think, you know, what I love about you know.
Katherine Tuominen
Yeah.
Chad Paris
the way your approach is is being very very integrity with what you're doing and and mindful of those things and making sure that you know the commitments around the whole unit, not just a singular part of
Katherine Tuominen
Right, absolutely. And I think it can be tempting, you know, in in our current economic state and the kind of world that we live in to take some shortcuts here and there or to, you know, compromise a little bit, but we just have to be careful to always check back to that. Core point and think, okay, well, if we compromise here, what are the kind of secondary consequences that can come from that? You know, how far would we steer off if we continue to compromise in this direction? And so I do think it's about having that honest and transparent conversation, but also surrounding yourself with people who aren't just yes people. They're not just gonna say, hey, great idea. and they sort of allow you that moment to check in and weigh up, you know, what does this truly mean in terms of that bigger brand perception, not just short-term gains?
Chad Paris
Yeah. Yeah. Well and I think our you know, our society today is and not to get into to to where we are, you know, nothing political or anything like that, but it but but but what our society or our culture today is very much, you know, instant gratification. I mean you you look, we we got more we got more people who were are clicking through social media today than ever before, hours upon hours. And and they are and they're growing by the day.
Katherine Tuominen
Mm-hmm.
Chad Paris
it's not slowing down. And and we have more people advertising on on you know a a a out or a platform than this than we ever could imagine ten years ago. So, you know, we we very much appeal to a a quick decision. You know, we we want to capture people, the mindset is is that you know
Katherine Tuominen
Mm.
Chad Paris
in branding or anything as we're walking down the street and we see something, it it speaks to us at that moment that we make quick action. Like not not there's no more thinking about it. It's more of I want it now. Click, you can have it now. It's reaction. We've very much shifted to a reaction model. And I think that's, you know, kind of kind of you know leading into to the the world of AI and and what it's doing and the instant gratification.
Katherine Tuominen
This is Right. Reaction. Mm-hmm.
Chad Paris
And there's a lot of marketing that is that is being taken over by AI and and the the authenticity of of a human element is is being cut out. And so I'd love to hear what your thoughts are on that because I see it as a I s I s I I again, I'm very cautious. I love AI, I think AI is a great tool. But I also think the human element is very powerful. And I don't want us to get to a place where we forget that human element for
Katherine Tuominen
Mm-hmm.
Katherine Tuominen
Mm-hmm.
Chad Paris
the integrity of of of of what we're trying to do versus just instant quick and make it s easier and faster.
Katherine Tuominen
Right. Absolutely. Well, we've definitely seen the uptake of AI across our industry as well, like every every one. And I think, you know, some examples of this are even the biggest, most trusted journals journals or publication that you read, whether it be Forbes or likewise, they're all using AI. The amount of times I've gone onto one of these publications and seen a very clearly AI written article and been shocked because you'd think that, you know, these journalists would be discouraged from from Not that it's AI slot, but it's pretty close sometimes. And so it's been a bit of a shift in terms of the industry and the types of content we're consuming. And going back to the business owner or the founder piece, I think it's really important to remember that your voice is truly the most valuable asset. And so you need to think about your story and the unique IP or the unique frameworks that you've developed over decades of your career and turn that into a content. Concept that is uniquely yours. And sure, you can distribute that using AI, you can save time, you can cut it and do all the cool things, but the actual key story needs to be true to your voice and it needs to be true to your framework that someone can't just Google and copy and paste. And that is the human element that is so valuable and will continue to be valuable as we continue to head into this direction of AI.
Chad Paris
What what do you what do you or what do you say or what what's your your thoughts on like the the and you kind of alluded to this a little bit, like the amount of I would say marketing material and the SEO optimization, like it it is so like AI heavy right now where people are are using it and you know, I have my own belief on it.
Katherine Tuominen
No.
Chad Paris
happy to share that. But I'd I'd love to know just from 'cause 'cause you do more North PR s than what I do in my work with the business consulting side. What what do you what do you what's your thoughts on that? Because I'm seeing like a a just an influx of people using these AI tools to do SEO for and I just have my own beliefs on it, but I'd love to hear yours. I'd be happy to share mine after
Katherine Tuominen
Yes, absolutely. I'm curious to hear yours for sure. Well, from our perspective, we look at it more in terms of right now, listicles are what's getting ranked in the top of AI searches. So they'll say like, this brand was featured in the top five article top five products on X or something like this. And what we've noticed from the data is that it's showing us brands that get PR early in the kind of l
Chad Paris
Yeah.
Katherine Tuominen
large learning models, AI world, they're going to compound much faster and better over time. So the brands that are getting in now on listicles, high quality press, getting those featured and getting it trained in these bots, they're the ones that are going to continue to kind of see the benefits long after. Whereas those who are jumping on bandwagon later or getting the press later. It's almost like there's less data points to work with and and they're sort of behind. And so it's funny because PR is actually seeing a bit of a spike because of this, because everyone's recognizing now is the time. Who knows what the space is gonna be like in a in a few years' time. And we might as well get in while it's early and get our brand featured at the top while we can.
Chad Paris
Yeah, it it's a race, right? I mean it's a it's a race to to who gets there first and and how fast. And I I will say I I think I think some of what we're seeing, and this is just my view on it, is that that you know you got the top, like you just mentioned, and totally agree with you on that. And then you have everybody else. And so what's happening too is is that you get a lot of these businesses that are trying to do SEO optimization through
Katherine Tuominen
Hmm. Yeah.
Chad Paris
to AI, well, they're all writing the same content. So so if you're if you're in an if you're in an industry or a vertical and you're using this AI platform, it's it's the same language. So it's it's pulling the same 25 others that are in your vertical that's kind of maybe not word the same, but it's in the same, it's pulling the same elements. And so I I tell I tell people the the ones that are that are
Katherine Tuominen
Mm.
Chad Paris
doing it a little different. And maybe this is a little nugget out there that's for somebody to to hear is you gotta have a little bit of that. It's fine to use it to pull it back and put a little human element in it and a little different vertical in that because you want to change the you want to, you know, these these these the way this thing works is it's looking for similarity. And so when it sees something different, it different
Katherine Tuominen
Mm.
Katherine Tuominen
Right.
Chad Paris
And it kind of starts looking at that and and sometimes can offset you a little bit different than than what's out there.
Katherine Tuominen
Let me
Katherine Tuominen
That's a great tip. That makes so much sense. I remember back in the day, I say back in the day it wasn't even that long ago, but in the internet world it's forever, when SEO agencies would like value stack blogs. So they would look at like the top ranking blogs in that category, in that keyword, you know, long tail, whatever. And then they would basically add an another chunk to it. So you'd get these like 2,000, 3,000 word things where they've just stacked as much as they possibly can from getting all these different pieces together. So I think some of these techniques to to a degree have been around for a while, but we're just seeing that in tenfold now with the use of AI. And people who are maybe not necessarily SEO agents, but they're using these AI tools to kind of try and hack their own. SEO presence so or AEO as it's as is now known. So yeah, very, very interesting times.
Chad Paris
Well, and I mean I think as we as we look at PR and and and and PR or consulting or or anything that, you know, all these are all these are different tools and pieces that help companies grow and be successful. And and so when they're when they're evaluating that, my hope is is that some business owners start looking at things at people like yourself and like me that are different. They don't do it the same way everybody else does, 'cause I I will say the large majority do it do it the same way.
Katherine Tuominen
Mm-hmm.
Chad Paris
They're same tools. And so when you when you want to be different, you're trying to set that, you gotta kind of think about, you know, if if you're so so I mean like this, if you're out here searching for, hey, I'm not I want to find me a PR person, da da da da, it's gonna give you a list of, you know, 20. And I would almost guarantee you that 20 of them are going to be doing it pretty close to the same. Where you can find, you know, what I liked about you and what what you're kind of an advocate for is that.
Katherine Tuominen
Mm.
Chad Paris
You you have experience, but you also do things a little different. Your your your method's a little different. You're thinking a little bit outside the box. And and I think that's where companies are gonna win when they engage with people like that, my opinion.
Katherine Tuominen
Mm-hmm.
Katherine Tuominen
Absolutely, that makes so much sense. And it goes back to what you're saying before around the human piece, not being something people can replicate. You know, it needs to be out-of-the-box thinking, out-of-the-AI framework thinking. And instead, it's about how can we really unearth that unique element that you bring and then infuse that into the various different aspects of business, whether that be SEO, operations, marketing, or otherwise.
Chad Paris
Yeah, because I think I mean look I AI is a powerful tool and it's not going anywhere. And I think I think the use of AI is is important. Like I'm all I'm an advocate for it. I think it's great. I use it. I use it with companies all the time. but I just think you have to have that human element plus AI. You have to you have to have somebody that can that can explain it to you or or it put it in the process that's going to give you that thought process behind the human element along with that. And if you really do a great job of pairing the two, very powerful. Very powerful.
Katherine Tuominen
Absolutely. And we've seen this as well in terms of trends. You know, it AI isn't necessarily a tastemaker. It doesn't know what people are kind of thinking, what's being discussed in like the human world to to a s to a degree, at least not yet. And so, you know, it it's about kind of understanding, well, what would the kind of human connotations or interpretation be of this piece if someone were to truly read it, resonate with it, and how can we layer that into our understanding and processes and and output. And I do think that that piece is extremely valuable and it's not going to be re replicated anytime soon.
Chad Paris
Yeah, agree. So as we as we're we're and this has been fantastic as we're kind of moving to the end, I always have to ask this question. It's kind of it to the till the end of our our time together, but I want to know, and I think the audience should know you walked away from an agency world in January to run your own. what's the thing, what's the one thing or maybe two things that that you wish somebody would have told you but no one told you as you were doing that, or you wish you had had maybe known before.
Katherine Tuominen
Absolutely. I was thinking about this the other day, actually. And I think one of the most useful things that I would have loved to know earlier on is that less is more. So when we first started out, actually we were a full stack agency, a full stack marketing agency. We did absolutely everything. And that's because, you know, me as a founder, I was naturally curious. You know, I was I was good at copywriting. I I I love strategy. And so I was like, I'll combine the creative mind with the strategic mind, and then we'll just do kind of like a
Chad Paris
Mm.
Katherine Tuominen
full holistic map of what that marketing department could look like. And we were mostly working with early stage business owners back then, in in various categories. So it was very much about doing more, doing as much as we could. And of course, you know, as as people quickly learn in business. Operationally, that is quite a mess. but also, you know, it's it's not necessarily the most efficient way of producing the results. So one of the things I learned early on was to pair back our offerings and just focus on what is truly going to be supportive for this founder at this point in their journey or this brand in with the direction that they're heading in and cut out all the extra fluff. You know, they don't need the extra features, the benefits, the the blah. They just want to. get the end result that they originally approached you for. And so by honing in and getting very, very clear on what it is that they truly want and not assuming, you know, sometimes that means literally asking them or doing the market research and then refining your offer from there, I think it would have saved us a lot of just scrambling, to be honest, and and figuring it out and and in my case, doing above and beyond what one person should should be doing. And yes, we had a team, but yeah, you know, when you're working at that, scale or scope, there was just a lot to be dealing with. So I'm really glad we made the decision probably a year ago now to focus only on public relations and communications and kind of branding within that. And so you know we do still have the digital marketing background and knowledge to understand how it feeds into their other teams and ecosystems. But now we very much have our special sector our industry that we focus on and a clear offering and and that has obviously led to much better results. And in short, the reason why we got to this place was because I recognized that the one thing that supported everyone was word of mouth marketing at scale. And the easiest way to do that was through public relations. So here we are.
Chad Paris
That's good. You know, I think that's the neat thing. Well, thank you for sharing that. That's that's really, really good. I think that's I think listen, I I I I find myself doing the same thing. I think all entrepreneurs do. We never want to especially when you're when you're new and starting out, you don't want to turn any job down. It's work. Like you don't be like, hey, how do you say no to a job? But you know, I'm I struggle with that. Like getting into that singular niche that that I'm really good at and
Katherine Tuominen
Yeah.
Chad Paris
know it's it's it's it's a challenge because again you you don't want to turn any work down but you also you also try to be too much, right? And you have to think about that and where it flows. And so I think that's a I think that's great advice, especially, you know, listen, I've I've talked to a lot of business owners and so do you and and and that's a common thing. I think I think people get they get scared of turning things down that they may not be really good at because It it's just like I said, it's a job, it's work. And and it's hard to say no to work when you need work, right? So but I think that's great advice. And I think that that man, for anybody, any scale, even even large companies, you know, be be good at what you're at, what you put at and do what you do and try not to be more. Yeah, it's good. Well what what Katherine, this has been absolutely fantastic. I've really enjoyed our time together and
Katherine Tuominen
Yes, thank you.
Chad Paris
And so if someone's out there and they listening and they heard this, how do they get in touch with your agency and you, your team, maybe to engage with and say, Hey, you know, I really I really like what Katherine's saying. I'd like to talk to her little more about, you know, what she's doing or or how I can engage. How would they do that?
Katherine Tuominen
Absolutely, you're welcome to visit us at www.catalystbrandstrategy.com. And I would suggest doing a complimentary call. It's only 15 minutes or so so, but it'll give us a good indication of where you're currently struggling, what gaps you could potentially fill, and we usually provide you with some key updates on what's currently happening within your industry or vertical that could relate to media, PR, and communications. So that's always a great starting point.
Chad Paris
Thank you. And I highly recommend if you're out there and you're like, you know, we we we want to do some PR, but we we wanna we don't know what we don't know what we don't know. Katherine's great her team that can answer questions and just lead what I like about what she does is is she's she wants to hear where you're where you're at and su suggest. She's not gonna just tell you something or she's not gonna just take on something. She may suggest you to somebody else, but she's she's really looking at at how you know how she can be at a a service to you. And that's what we are. We're a service industry.
Katherine Tuominen
Yeah.
Chad Paris
And if we can't service you, we're not gonna just we don't wanna just take your money to say we can do it. We wanna make sure we're the right fit and and we get you in the right place where you need to go. So don't be afraid to reach out. It doesn't cost you anything to have a phone call and just find out, you know, what needs to be done. You may be surprised and and hear something that you're like, Wow, that's gonna change everything for me. So
Katherine Tuominen
Absolutely. And we love sharing free resources and kind of different directions that someone could take if they're not quite at a place where they're ready to invest yet. So, you know, especially as was saying, we love impact-driven founders and those who have this kind of bigger mission. And some of them aren't yet at a place where where they can truly invest in PR at the scale that they want to. And so we always sort of say, start here and let's revisit this. Six months, a year from now, there's so many different opportunities, but we want to continue to have those conversations and build those relationships.
Chad Paris
That's great.
Chad Paris
I love that. That's great. Well well, thank you so much. And and as always, I'm Chad Paris with Stonefly Consulting. This is process over pressure. have people every week like this, really enjoy our conversation and and again I'd love to to to help you as well. If you if you can't find Katherine, you can always reach out to me at stoneflyconsulting dot com my website. Be happy to to connect with you on LinkedIn and Facebook and all those fun things and can connect you back to Katherine if you If you need that. So again, as always, thank you for joining the show. It's process over pressure every time.
Katherine Tuominen
Thank you, Chad.
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