Mike Brevik
cyberdogzmarketing
Building a Relationship-First Agency Model | Mike Brevik
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"every customer you have and every opportunity you have to to hit a r home run is a bridge to the next one. So if you treat any customer in an insignificant way, or if you feel like, they're not my biggest customer, if you try to segment them in a way that is not positioning them as the most important thing, then you're you're kind of Setting off on a on the wrong foot
Key Takeaways
- ◆Every customer in the early years is a bridge to the next opportunity, so treating any customer as insignificant or segmenting them by size sets you off on the wrong foot from the start.
- ◆When you leave corporate and start your own thing, manufacture structure intentionally by joining networking groups, building business and operations systems, and filling your pipeline with projects rather than waiting for clarity to emerge.
- ◆Mike rejected an agency's strategy to present a 200k price increase upfront in their annual contract, instead advising them to hold at the previous year's rate with optional add-ons, so the client would reach higher numbers through their own decisions rather than feeling strong-armed.
- ◆Mike prioritizes steady monthly revenue over lump-sum contracts because ten months of predictable income at 100k per month gives him security, boundaries, and time to build relationships and layer in new projects, whereas a million-dollar upfront payout forces him to stretch resources and hope he measures up.
- ◆If a client can't equate your deliverables to value because you've overcomplicated the scope in a PDF, you're vulnerable even if you're contractually covered, because the client will sit in their office thinking they don't know what they're paying for and that perception sticks.
- ◆Calculate your hourly rate by dividing monthly income by hours worked, then compare it to what you'd pay someone else to do non-core tasks. If a social media manager costs less than your hourly rate, hire them instead of doing it yourself, because every hour spent on low-value work is money lost.
- ◆Before hiring anyone in-house, sit down with someone like a marketing consultant to scope out the process and strategy you actually need. Without defining the process first, you're just throwing money away on hiring.
Full transcript
Show
Chad Paris
Welcome back to Process Over Pressure. I'm Chad Paris your host, and I'm excited about today's guest. Today's guest spent more than 20 years on the corporate side of marketing, watching agencies do everything wrong and making a mental list every time of things that happened that he would fix when he got the chance. He finally got the chance. He walked away from a career where he was the decision maker. He was the guy cutting the checks and managing agency relationships. And he built his own agency from scratch. Not to do what everybody else is out there doing, to do it differently, to do it the way it should have been done a long time ago. His company is called Cyberdogz, and it's a non-traditional branding and creative agency based in Minnesota that runs on all contractor model, a relationship first philosophy, a zero tolerance for the bait and switch playbook that's out there. He is also the host of Brand Retro, a podcast about psychology behind brands that build loyal followings. He calls himself, I love this, the chief bargaining officer. I'm gonna let that one speak for itself. Mike Brevik, welcome to Process Over Pressure.
Mike Brevik
Hey Chad, thanks for having me on.
Chad Paris
Yeah, it's so exciting to have you. I know we we had our our pre talk and getting a chance to know each other and yeah, I was kinda looking forward to this. I had this one kind of pegged as one that would be fun to do. So I'm really looking forward to having you on. And I guess, you know, as we as we start this show and we and like I always do, I think it's important to know who Mike is. I kinda gave a little intro there, but maybe I missed something. W tell tell us who we who we're talking to today and And what makes you get out of the bed every day to be the chief marketing officer?
Mike Brevik
Yeah, yeah, my name is Mike Brevik. I am from I guess West Central Minnesota. I grew up in a very small town. I was always kind of into art and I was kind of drawing, painting, those kinds of things. I ended up going to school to be an illustrator and which then turned into graphic design, which is kind of how I got my start working for a small agency in South Texas. And from there it went from small agency to printing company to corporate retail. and 20 some years later, you know, a lot of lessons learned, a lot of experiences, a lot of you know, seeing different parts of the business and and experiencing it from different, you know, places within the company, I decided to start my own thing. And it wasn't you know, it wasn't that I was burnt out or it wasn't some kind of a you know, a revolt to corporate life or anything like that. It was I wanted to get back to doing things that filled my cup. I wanted to get back to creativity and I wanted to, you know, kind of have fun again in the job and not not just punch that clock every day. So when I started Cyberdogz, you'd already kind of alluded to it, but I kind of took all those lessons and the different things that I saw, not necessarily knowing if they were right, wrong or otherwise, but I kind of created a culture that here's how here's how I would do it if I was to build my own agency and You know, as a result, it's very contrasting to the traditional agency of how things are ru are run, but I kind of like that. And and once I kind of realized that, I leaned into that and and we've kind of made that our our mission and our model is that, you know, there's a lot of different ways to do business and it doesn't always have to be, you know, this monkey see, monkey do type environment.
Chad Paris
Yeah, I I I I really love that. And you know, I think I think things that we go through and experience, myself being a former executive, and you you see things, right? You experience things and and you know, the old saying is is everybody's like, Well, if I could if I was in charge, I would do it this way. you know, you hear that all the time. And even people that that may be under you, you know, well, if I would had the opportunity, I'd do it this way. But you you know, you kind of you kind of take mental note of those things because there are some things that As an executive, your hands are tied. You'd like to do things differently, but you just can't do it. and you you know, you you work for somebody else and and you know you you want to go, if you will listen to me, this will be better. But reality is you just can't do that. And so I think, you know, for myself and you, I I think one thing that's that's that's that's rewarding for both of us is that we're actually getting to put, you know, this into practice. And when we when we talk to our clients or we're involved with them. We we get to look at those pitfalls. We we we're actually on the place where they actually listen to us now and they're like, Well you tell me what to do and so it's kinda fun.
Mike Brevik
Yeah, and in and in the inverse to that, you know, when you're in the corporate world or you're working for a big company, you also have the protection of that company. And you you know, you you're able to make some mistakes without feeling it in your checkbook, kind of a kind of a thing. And there's something about, you know, not having a net to fall on that is fun as well. So yes, I get to make a lot of my own decisions and drive my own fate and whatnot, but man, I need to I need to be careful, I need to pay attention, I need to be calculating and and I like that part of it too. And and sure, I've made plenty of mistakes, but I've also got an opportunity to redeem myself in those scenarios because I have that control.
Chad Paris
And I think that's important, right? Like like we have to self reflect. Like and you're right. I and and I'm not against corporate America by any means. I don't want that to come across. I I I love my time in the companies that I work for and I work for some really great companies and I've enjoy I enjoyed it and I learned a lot, right? it's just it's just a different working environment and that's okay and that's for somebody. For me, you know, I think one of the things that kind of allude to what you're saying is is that when when you're when you get your own you you know, it's your own gig, it's your own deal. You get a chance to, you know, you better go into it with a mindset. And I and I I tell people all the time when I talk to them, like, you better be humble. Like, like owning your own business, if you're not humble, you won't last very long. And you gotta be willing to look yourself in the mirror and go, Hey, I screwed that up. Like that that stomp and and self reflect and and adjust and adapt. And because 'cause we don't have a safety net. If if I don't do it and my company doesn't make any money, I don't I don't eat. And and that's the reality.
Mike Brevik
Yeah, and I and I mean to be honest, every especially when you're starting out, every customer you have and every opportunity you have to to hit a r home run is a bridge to the next one. So if you treat any customer in an insignificant way, or if you feel like, they're not my biggest customer, if you try to segment them in a way that is not positioning them as the most important thing, then you're you're kind of Setting off on a on the wrong foot because that's how I got here. I mean, 10 years later, I can tell you that doing doing good work in my first two weeks is what bought me another month. And doing good work in my first month is what bought me six months. And and so on and so it goes. And 10 years later, it's like I'm glad I cared. Because if I
Chad Paris
Yeah.
Mike Brevik
had ego in that process, or if I felt like You know, for some reason the client just didn't get it, I don't know that I'd be here, honestly. And there are times, I mean, don't get me wrong, you gotta swallow your pride, that's part of it. But so what? You know, you had to do that at a corporate job too. You had to you had to pick your battles and you had to know when to fight and you had to know when to stand up for something. And sometimes you just needed to know when to do what you're told. And it's the same in owning a business.
Chad Paris
Yeah, you know, and and that's why I love having this conversation with you because, you know, I I'm I'm new. I'm not new to this business. I'm new to this this owning my own company, like starting it. And and you've been doing it now for a while. And so you you're y what you said really resonates with me as like in the beginning, like I'm in the I would say I'm in the beginning stages of of this company and and owning it. And you you look at every opportunity as a blessing. And it is. I mean I I truly and and I hope I n I never want to lose that. Like I think that's You know, someone who entrusts me to to work with them and and to help them, like to me, that's and and this is gonna sound crazy, it's better than the money that I make from the work. Like just the fact that they trust me to say, I want you to help me, is is the part that I think I get more feelings out of that than I do like the paycheck at the end of it. You know what I mean? And and and I I I I don't ever wanna lose that. Like I never wanna lose that. I think that's that's so important.
Mike Brevik
Yeah, I mean I I've said this to a lot of people and for those who get it, they get it. For those who don't, I kind of get that head turning like, what? But I've never done it for the money and I don't think that's something you should focus on. I think you should focus on the work, you should focus on the opportunities, and you should focus on just how do I keep, you know, from a business perspective, how do I keep myself busy forty, fifty hours a week? The money'll take care of itself. The money, the word of mouth, the credibility, all those different things that you kind of feel like you might need to manufacture that part, that'll all take care of itself if you just focus on the work and delivering a good result. And it's it's huge. You don't really know that until you kind of live through it. But it it does. It acts absolutely growth the whole thing. It all just kind of shows up. I mean, you can be intentional with it and And whatnot, I'm not saying that's not part of it, but but it's not, it's it's a very small component of the whole picture. And you know, quick story for you, like I went into this whole thing pretty prepared. I mean, I thought I'm ready to go, I'm doing this, I had some money saved up, and I I had my I kind of had my whole thing mapped out. And the first day I woke up. Always say this, but unemployed or self employed, however you want to look at it. It was a weird day because I got up like I always do, and I'm like, I don't have to be anywhere. I don't need like what am I gonna do all day? And I
Chad Paris
yeah.
Mike Brevik
had a few clients going into it, so I mean I kind of had stuff to do, but I also knew that those weren't enough. So I had to kind of manufacture ways to well, I need I need a sales project. Pipeline. What does that look like? So I joined some networking groups. I need some business and some operations system. So I guess I'll start working on that. So I just started to kind of manufacture things to fill the time. And structurally, it just kind of started to develop around me. And then that's just kind of how I got started. But it but it's a very strange feeling on that first day when you wait. When you're used to punching that clock or you know, go into that corporate job every day. It's a it's a weird feeling the first day you wake up and you don't need to be anywhere.
Chad Paris
It it I I was sitting here laughing, you probably saw me. I was thinking like, I do this every every morning. It's it's kind of funny 'cause 'cause it's just me, right? Like I'm so used to having a staff and so used to going in and and so I fix my you know, I have my office here in in my home and I I fix my cup of coffee and I walk in and I say, Well, good morning, staff. And nobody here but me. But I just I just I start my morning every morning the same way. And it and I and I kinda laugh to myself a little bit about that. And I And but I but I actually I think there's a lot of story in that because I know while today that it's a staff of me. it won't always be that way. And I I I wanna start I w I wanted to start my business the same way that I would end it. Whether it be the single me or it's twenty years when there's two hundred people working for me. I'm just throwing that number out there. But I wanted to start my day the same way and I've been very, very mindful of that. And and you know, I was asked this question, and I think you will relate to this, is what's the most enjoyable part of what you do now? And I will tell you that it's actually helping people and seeing results from giving them some tools and resources to help their business. Like I get more enjoyment out of them calling and saying, Man, I'm really seeing the progress, I'm really seeing that. And that to me That's what that's what that's my motivation. That's what motivates me to get up and do it every single day.
Mike Brevik
Yeah, I mean I think it's it's you know it's creating dependency out of thin air. You know, I've made I've made myself valuable to people just from building a relationship and delivering some kind of a product or a result or whatever it is. And there wasn't a there wasn't an ad in the paper for an open position. There wasn't a definition of role. There wasn't like there wasn't there was no box I needed to fit into to make myself relevant in that scenario. It was a blank canvas that maybe started over a cup of coffee that turned into a quick project that turned into could you help me with this? And and in some ways there was a an exchange with no strings attached, just trying to be nice, trying to be a good dude, you know, I don't want to say the word free, but you're just you're putting yourself out there in a way to
Chad Paris
Absolutely.
Mike Brevik
just help somebody out and within the right you know parameters and and the criteria in which you're trying to build that business it just develops into something and yeah that's probably the best part I mean I like you know I like marketing and these different things but for me it's people are depending on me you know whether it's my team or my clients or whatever but it's crazy to it's it's a crazy idea because you don't know where you're gonna be 10 years from now.
Chad Paris
Yeah, it is. I mean it's it's it's a journey, right? And and I say this to to people listening, you know, any entrepreneur and it it whether it whether it be a consulting or not a consulting or a market agency or I don't care what it is. I mean I have a I have lawyers, I have doctors, I have you name it on on the on my show and and it's it's the same. It's one one thing is always the same is that being an entrepreneur is is not always knowing the right answer, but it's willing to to to grow and develop. and find the right answer. The the what I what I have feel and have seen is that the entrepreneurs that do very well are those that are willing to be humble and they're willing to to and being humble need means you gotta ask for help sometimes when you when you don't know. And be and be willing to be reflective. Like really be reflective on what works and does it work and be able to adapt to that. And and you know, I know there's a lot of things that would go into that, but those two things Are pretty consistent with people who've been successful.
Mike Brevik
Yeah, I mean I think that I think there are companies out there that are looking for more of a, you know, they don't know what they're looking for, so they're looking for more of a traditional agency type service. They're trying they're they're want they want to jump through the hoops. And then once I think they've done that enough times and they've kind of looked at the ROI or they've, you know, maybe been led towards something that maybe didn't benefit their business in some way. I think once they're reflecting on that. And they're looking at that and thinking, well, what's the point then? Either they completely get a bad taste in their mouth and they give up on the process or whatever it is, or they go seeking the alternative, which is more of a human process. It's more transparent, it's more humble, it's more collaboration-based. all those things. And that's exactly right. Like, I think that I think there's success out there for all different kinds, but the ones I see that actually sustain and that can kind of weather the storm and suffer through hard times. They're the ones who have focused on relationship and and providing something. I say quality, but it's more of a it's more of a a humanity and a and a quality mix than it is just, you know, a result. You know, I would say, you know, even for my own clients, I think we do a great job. I think we deliver a lot of good results. But man, we get a lot of grace when we make mistakes too. And that's because of the relationship. It's because of the loyalty and the commitment and kind of how we've positioned ourselves with these clients. And by no means are we perfect, and neither are the clients, but that was part of the thing I wanted to get away from when I started this whole thing is I didn't want it to be based on solely numbers and transactions and what we can do for each other. Because If that's all it is, if it's all in an bundled up in an exchange, it's a soulless existence and there's there's no there's nothing saving you there. You're only as good as your last price model, which sucks.
Chad Paris
So I I w I wanna I wanna press into something that I think you and I could talk about and and my hope is is that people maybe listen and hear this and and and get it because I don't think I think for a business owner and I'm speaking about a business owner who who owns a business, whether it's a small business, medium sized business, large business, whatever, right? 'Cause I you and I both have been on that side of it from from the from the executive side. You know, very often what happens is is, you know, let's let's use marketing for example, because that's what you do. And I've been on that side of hiring marketing people. You you get you get the you get the message, you know, up top, hey, we want to we want to do more in our marketing, or or we want to launch a new product, or we wanna do all this. And so, you know, usually typically starts with them want knowing what they want to do or or or what they're you know, what they're trying to do. And then you you gotta start putting together outside sources, marketing people to help kind of pitch that, right? My experience has been is that very often you set it, and this is why I want to go there, it's a transaction only. And I wanna I wanna lean into that because I think what you said is is so important because I I've been on it where I've hired people to do the marketing part for us, and and you come in and it's all about What is the return? What is return? Because often the top of the of the of the of the pecking order at the top, they could care less of what you're doing with the fluffy ads and all that. They just want to know what the ROI is. What's the what's the return? What what are we doing to drive business and make money? That's what they want to know, right? And there's way more that goes into it than just that. And so, you know, your approach, I think, is totally non traditional than than what's out there. And I just think it would be, you know, something to talk about is because For me as a person who's formerly used to hire people, sitting at that business executive level and hiring people, it was always transactional. That's really all you could find. And I think what you're doing is so different. And that's why I want to talk about it because that's not your approach. It's not transactional.
Mike Brevik
No, and I mean I'll give you an example. So like one of my last transactions, so to speak, in the corporate world was I was working with an agency that was preparing their annual contract. And they brought me the contract and they said, Hey, would you mind taking a look at this before we propose it to the board or whatever? And I Yeah, I can I can do that. So I looked at it and I instantly saw that they had given themselves quite a hefty increase from the previous year. So I went through the contract and I noticed where they added the different deliverables and components and whatnot. And I went back to that agency and I said, Well, here's the thing. You're trying to go for the kill. I wouldn't. I said, what I would do is I would present it either where you were at last year or slightly, you know, cost of in cost of living increase or whatever you want to do, slightly elevated. And then I would put in there some optionals in there. And I said, you already you already have the pulse on the business. You know we're gonna add things. You're gonna get to that number, but you're gonna get there almost passively or by their decision, not you trying to strong arm the number. And and of course their position was, yeah, but it's a fixed thing. And and they they wanted to go for the kill right out of the gate. And I was like, Well, whatever, it's your business. So sure enough, the they made the presentation. Which I didn't know the the company was looking at other agencies at the time, and I was not in on those conversations. So within a week's time, you know, I was brought into a meeting, sat down with the the the figurehead, so to speak, and we walked through the four or five different proposals that were thrown in front of us, and guess who's the highest was? You know, had they left it alone, had they come at it a little bit more strategically and looked at it from a you know, let's get a little bit at a time to get to our goal and not necessarily go for the big number up front, they would have still been there.
Chad Paris
Yeah.
Mike Brevik
And, you know, it's one client, whatever. And I'm not saying that happens all the time, but in that instance, I learned a lesson there. It's like, you know, if my goal is to get to a million dollars, what's the difference if I get it a hundred grand at a time or I get a million up front? I mean, a million up front sounds cooler. I get that. But you got to think strategically, you got to think long term because a million up front buys me a really hefty payout up front. And then I got to decide how to stretch the million. Where if you give me $100,000 for the next 10 months or whatever, I've got security for 10 months.
Chad Paris
Yeah.
Mike Brevik
I I got a checks and balance, I've got boundaries, I got a ceiling, I've got a basement. I know what I need to manage or survive on. until I find that next project, next client, whatever it is. But the end result's the same. So for me, it's more of a a patient, like, let's build, let's, let's buy ourselves 10 months worth of road to build a relationship and find ways to layer in those next projects or that next wave of, you know, contract or project, whatever it is. versus putting ourselves out there in one lump sum and then hoping we measure up to it. And in this and in this case, that's what they looked at. They said, you know, okay, we were happy with their we were happy with their output. We were happy with what we were getting from them at that rate. But now they're trying to wrench us for another 200 grand. They ain't worth that. Whether they
Chad Paris
Yeah.
Mike Brevik
were or weren't, I don't know. That's debatable. But the way it was presented within that context and lined up against four other presentations that were maybe better or cheaper, they they made themselves vulnerable.
Chad Paris
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, and that's and that's same thing. I see that all the time. And and and another thing is, you know, it's the deliverables, right? I mean, very often I talk to business leaders and the and the CEOs and founders, and you know, for them it's all about the deliverables, about what's your accomplishment for them. And and I think one of the things that I took from that that that I try to do is a very detailed of expectations. What what what is it that I'm going to do? because This happens a lot, right? You you start a you start with a client and you you you have a discovery call and they tell you, okay, well, I you to do X, Y, and Z. And you and you scope that and you give it to But they're they're especially you see that a lot in in in other entrepreneurs is where their their minds are always racing. And so before you know it, they're coming to you and go, Hey, what about this? What about this? What about this? And the scope grows. And and it's end up like like you gotta kinda you kinda have to it And and I think if more people took the approach like you do with like, you know, you kind of alluded to it, like getting all your money up front and then being under this whole umbrella of like, this is what you're gonna do, and then everything kind of comes to you, rather than building that relationship together, like here's a deliverable that you need, I'm gonna deliver it to you and you and you be satisfied with it. And then we go to the next month and the next month and the next month. And then if we need to rescope things, but we only can do what we can do within that time frame. And and you gotta be able as as a as you know what we do to articulate that so that business owners or COs are looking at it saying, Okay, Cyberdogz said they were going to do this, this, this, they fixed that problem. Like there is no deniability. You can't say, well, I don't know what I'm getting from I've heard I've been on that side where I'm like, I don't even know what we're paying for because I don't even get anything. Like that there's a lot of them that do that, that are out there.
Mike Brevik
Well and and to be fair, sometimes what happens is I think the client, I don't know what I'm getting from them because they've bowled over the top of me with so much information, I don't even know what I'm looking at. And that's not a necessarily a flaw on the agency. It's the flaw in the approach of how they set themselves up to be measured. And that and I see that happen a lot where they overcomplicated Yes, they successfully convince the client to pay them whatever they wanted, but you also set yourself up to fail because even though the client can't articulate the expectations because it was over their head, they know it's a lot because they paid a lot. So then when they go back and sit in their office and think, I don't even know what they're doing, that's not a good start.
Chad Paris
Yeah. No.
Mike Brevik
So so you have to be able to, yeah, list out and And explain those those expectations and those milestones, but you gotta do it in a way that's mentally digestible so that they can equate it to value. If they can't equate it to value, you're screwed. Like, don't do that. And I see it all the time. And and I've experienced it too, and I've made the mistake. So it's not like I'm just judging everybody else, but
Chad Paris
No.
Mike Brevik
but it's happened and it's a dance. You have to Just because you throw it in the PDF and I emailed it to you, that's not that's not going to get you out of it. Because if the client doesn't understand what they're reading or if it's too much to absorb, it doesn't matter. Contractually, yeah, I guess you're covered, but that's not what that's not the goal. The goal is I want the client to value me.
Chad Paris
Exactly. It and that's that's the point. That it kind of back to what I was tr making is that it i it it is as a as a as a business owner that's out there. And and I'm sure there's people that that are listening that are like, yeah, I've experienced that where, you know, I've I've engaged with someone and we've paid you know, a hundred grand or a hundred and fifty grand at the end of it, I don't even know what it does. I mean that that is common. That that is very common out.
Mike Brevik
It is and sometimes sometimes they made a you know, they might have been sold a bill of goods, but sometimes maybe that agency did everything they said they do, but the client, I don't know what good looks like, so I can't tell them it was worth it. And it's like that that sucks for the agency because you're giving that potential client or that that customer a perception that you don't want out there. So how you deliver it, how you articulate it and how you control that narrative, it's a huge part of it.
Chad Paris
Yeah. I mean, because that's that's that's our job, right? Is to deliver deliver deliver improvement. It it's it's the reason they're coming to you or they're coming to me is because they're they need improvement. That they they recognize that they need something. And you know, it's it's very common that a lot of what happens is where they just start hiring people. I mean, this is this is common too. Like they just well, we'll hire I I I I know a client that that I work with in the past where We'll we'll just hire a marketing director and and maybe two or three people to work for them. And they do that, right? And and then they they they're not they're not from that mindset. They're not they're not from the marketing side of things. So to them, when you try to go to interview a marketing director, you have a list of questions that you created in your interview but it doesn't do what the business needs it to do, or it's not the right questions or it's not the right fit. And then you start Just throwing money out the window because you've hired this group and you want them to go do it or hire this person, maybe you brought them in-house, rather than sitting down with somebody like yourself and saying, Hey, hey, Mike, here's where we want to go. What would you be your way of doing that? And let it kind of scope through that so people can physically read it and understand. Because not every business owner is a great marketer. And not every business owner is a great salesperson. You have strengths and you have weaknesses. And you you've got to you've got to find that that group or that people, maybe it's a group, maybe it's individually. I mean, I've oftentimes I've said, hey, look, I'll go, I'll go let me let me work with you and help build what it is you need. And then we can start hiring people. Because if you don't have the process first, just go and hire people, you're just throwing money away.
Mike Brevik
But if you don't even know what you're trying to do, like
Chad Paris
Yeah.
Mike Brevik
I mean, to me it's funny because the answers in the title. We're gonna go hire a marketing director. Okay, we'll break that down. You're trying to
Chad Paris
Yeah.
Mike Brevik
find somebody that can direct marketing, correct? That that's really what you're looking for. But
Chad Paris
I see it. That's right.
Mike Brevik
most people most situations are I wanna hire a marketing director that can build websites, that can write copy, that can do social media, that can graphic design, that can Like, I want them to carry every skill set that lives inside of a marketing company. That's not a marketing director. You're looking for a unicorn, and that's not real. So you need to figure out what it is. We really need social media. Then find a social media manager. Or, you know, hire, hire somebody that fills the skill set. And if they have fringe, like they're also a graphic artist, or like fine. That's not that. crazy or that's not that unrealistic to to come across. But when people hire a marketing director and they expect them to check every box in the marketing spectrum, it's ridiculous. It's not gonna happen. Or
Chad Paris
Yeah.
Mike Brevik
or if it does happen, it's not gonna it's not gonna garnish good results, put it that way.
Chad Paris
No, but I mean I know for you, you've you've you've sat down with those business owners and I and look, it's I I wanna be very clear, it's not just small business owners that deal with this. This is this is this is, you know, prevalent all through it. And you and you sit down with them and and that's the uncovering part where you start really peeling back the onion and saying layers of the onion and going, Yeah, this is the the whole thing is set up and and you know, that's why I you know, I'm an advocate for for having people like yourself or or or just to just to come in and and and you know tell me tell me what I need because I don't know what I need. On the other side of that, the reason that doesn't doesn't happen as much as it should be is that nobody who owns a business, if you're out there and you own a business right now, no one's raising their hand going, hey, I think I have problems. Like nobody wants to do that, right? Like, like I don't want to do that. You don't want to do that. That's a reality. And when you start saying, hey, I want to bring somebody in to look, you have to, you you, you and your mindset are are convinced, you have convinced yourself that you're not good enough to run this, that you gotta have some help. And that's that is that is a normal feeling and thinking that happens, but it's not accurate. That's like that little devil telling you a bunch of stuff. You have to ask for help and it's okay. That's what makes business grow, is being able to have expertise in certain things. that someone may be good at to help with them with some insight. That's not weakness, that's actually sh showing strength.
Mike Brevik
I would I would say even more so than that, it's it's understanding the value of your own time. Like I meet a lot of business owners and a lot of clients, you know, that either went through a phase or are still in the phase where they think it's cheaper and easier to do all the work themselves. And it's like, well, then you don't understand the value of your own time. Because if if you're looking at if you're running a business, you should have a rough understanding as to what your time is worth. If you make You know, whatever. If you make a ten thousand dollars a month, you should be able to run the math backwards and go, I'm I'm good for about a hundred bucks an hour or whatever that number is. So then the question is, how much would it cost me to hire a social media manager? Is that more or less than a hundred dollars an hour? Well, it's probably less. Then why are you doing it? Because if you can go out and produce a hundred dollars an hour like accurately and consistently.
Chad Paris
Somewhere else.
Mike Brevik
That's where you need to be focused, not sitting there trying to learn the nuances of Facebook and Instagram and all these different things. But a lot of people do it and they don't, they just can't get over that idea of the fact that it's cheaper and easier to do it themselves. And it's like, but it's not, because it's costing me every day you do that, it's costing you money and it's delaying your the growth of your business by not focusing on the things you should be focusing on. So then the the the inverse of that is when people say, Well, I can't afford to hire somebody out of the gate. And it's like, Well, then you need to lower your expectations or find a way to invest in your brand, borrow from yourself and put those wheels in motion because this chicken and the egg thing you're doing where you're managing your own stuff, or you know, it doesn't even have to be social media. It could be, you know, it'd
Chad Paris
Yeah. Any of it.
Mike Brevik
be any task. It could could be taxes or bookkeeping or whatever. But Every day you spend working on those things and instead of growing your business, it prolongs the process. You'll never be able to afford it.
Chad Paris
Yep. And man, I mean that you could better couldn't have said it better myself. And that's that's that's a that's a very tough challenge because you're you're you're looking at, well, you know, in and this is very common and and and as we close, I I'd like to kind of end on this is every everything's looked through a monetary lens. dollar, right? We talk a lot about dollar, dollar, dollar. Where you you can't see the results from having that person who's good at and giving the time back. Like when you start talking about your time, that's not something that you can see day to day. But if you'll write it down, I always tell people, write down what you do in a day. And I think this is a great exercise for any business owner out there. Write down what you do in a day and and and and do that for one week. And at the end of that week I want you to look at and what where you spent most of your time at and ask yourself, if I did this, this is, you know, let's say that 90% of your time was spent in the operational side of it, then you might need to get an operational person because if that's not something you're really less you're really good at it, but if you're not really good at it, give that to somebody else so that you can be really good. Maybe sales is what you're really good at, or maybe the marketing part's what you're really good at. That's where 90% of your time should be. Do what you're good at and let somebody else do what is not as good. It's costing you all your time.
Mike Brevik
Percent.
Chad Paris
Yeah. Well, Mike, it has been a man, this has been great. What what a what a pleasure. And and and for people out there, look, that are looking for a non-traditional, somebody who's been on the corporate side, understands the language, who's who's, you know, could give some insight and give some, you know, opportunity for people to to see maybe a little bit different approach than what's out there. How do they get in touch with you?
Mike Brevik
you could check us out at cyberdogzmarketing . com or find me on Mike Brevik, I'm on LinkedIn. we're kind of all over the socials. So any place you can find me there, that'd be great.
Chad Paris
And who do you work with? If you if someone was asking, like, does he do small business? Does he do large business? Who what's your what's your favorite or what's your area of expertise?
Mike Brevik
I I mean I would say we do a lot with small to medium sized businesses, but then just through my, you know, previous life, you know, we've got connections where we've done projects for bigger companies like Janice Motorcycles or Milwaukee Tool. we've done things in and around the entertainment industry, the comic book industry. it's kind of a mixed bag, which is kind of fun. but we kind of go where the opportunity is and we kind of go where you know, where the fun is. You know, we kinda wanna like I'm creative, so I I like to just do things that fill my cup as well. But, you know, we have certain niches we're stronger in, but at the same time, we're only stronger there because we've done more of them. It doesn't necessarily mean that the tactics different. So
Chad Paris
That's great. Well, Mike, thank you so much for for being on the show today. It was a great guys, check him out. Cyberdogz. Also, he's got a a podcast. I I highly recommend, you know, Mike checking that out. I think he's probably, you know, I kind of looked at a little bit. Fun. and and you know, something that you know, if you're if you're looking for something a little bit different, it's fun. So he's was it Retro Pot brand retro is the name of it, right?
It's
it's yeah, the podcast name is brand retro and we talk a lot about marketing, a lot about business and a lot about kind of the power of nostalgia and branding and all those fun things. So yeah.
Chad Paris
All right. Well, thank you for ha for for being on today. really enjoyed it. Again, as always, this is Chad Paris with Process Over Pressure. you can check me out at stoneflyconsulting.com. also Stonefly Consulting, Process Over Pressure is the podcast on YouTube. Love for you to subscribe, join. more content will be coming out each and every day. So thank you for for for being on.
Mike Brevik
Thanks, Chad.
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